[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Legolas stayed until the death of Aragorn. I would imagine the majority of his folk would stay at least as long as he did and maybe longer.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:


Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

Yes, but no time frame is given about how long they take to diminish and depart. Legolas's colony was still around for the entirety of Aragorn's reign. Celeborn did not rule over Avari, becuase they had begun the journey west.

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.

I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe. Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively. The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age. Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)

This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

The elves had never been ones to accept leaders based on birth alone. I have pointed out how many an elvish leader, even exceptionally strong ones like Feanor and Galadriel had been rejected by their people. So Galadriel had more than just her birthright to hold them together.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

Arwen showed wisdom, patience and self sacrifice in her dealings with Aragorn. To give up immortality for the one she loved and in part to enrich Gondor was something important according to Tolkien and worthy of reward.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Well by first seeing the flaw arranging for the Valar to be asked how did she not arrange it? She sought and got permission granted. Just because the Valar had the final say does not negate her role in anyway.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.

I don't see anything to suggest he was more strongly tempted than Galadriel. He never contemplates stealing ring and never says he desired to use it. You are reading things that are not their in the text. The ring appeals more to those with certain flaws, most notably pride.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.

Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.

I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.

Galadriel was weaker than Sauron by such a great margin, that even if she took the One Ring she could not defeat him. Sauron is no fool and would not be broadcasting his thoughts out like you wish to imagine. Galadriel had great deductive skills and given Sauron's actions both past and present could predict the way he was going to act. He though, being blinded by evil could not predict the same about her.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.

Again you are mistaken. Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them. It's not just elves, but the Numenoreans had the a similar ability.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.

I don't agree at all with your interpretation that it is similar to what Frodo calls Mrs Maggot. Arwen was a real Queen of men and put alongside her title is that she was Queen of Elves too.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.