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Tar Elenion · 07-26-2001, 05:29 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

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Beautiful work!
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Thank you. I did this last year for a debate at Tolkien Online, so it is probably not quite _on topic_ in some details, but close enough.

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Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth.
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I agree, this is refering to averages.

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And really what can you make of the "Quendi and Eldar" statement on the Sindar:
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In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
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My take on this is that the Sindar resemble the Noldor, but are not as strongly built, they are more lithe than the Noldor. This is in keeping with Numenorean Linear Measures in UT where it is noted that the 'Teleri were in general [an average

] somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor'.

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"Strong and tall" compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing.
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The Noldor are noted for their height and strength from their beginning: "...and they [the fourth group of Quendi found] were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung."
Appendix to Quendi and Eldar (the Awakening Legend).
The other groups have no similar physical descriptions made.

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Perhaps they are "strong and tall" compared to Men? Probably not particularly.
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I would say probably yes. That is compared to Men (in general) on average.

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Taller on the averge than the Bëorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant?
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The way I interpret it is that the Hadorians were the tallest of the Edain (until they interbred and became less distinct) and rivalled the Noldor (on average). The Sindar and Beorians were shorter (on average) and perhaps more alike in height.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

07-26-2001, 05:29 PM	#3
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes -------------------- Quote: Beautiful work! --------------------- Thank you. I did this last year for a debate at Tolkien Online, so it is probably not quite _on topic_ in some details, but close enough. -------------------------- Quote: Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth. --------------------------- I agree, this is refering to averages. ----------------------- Quote: And really what can you make of the "Quendi and Eldar" statement on the Sindar: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- My take on this is that the Sindar resemble the Noldor, but are not as strongly built, they are more lithe than the Noldor. This is in keeping with Numenorean Linear Measures in UT where it is noted that the 'Teleri were in general [an average ] somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor'. ------------- Quote: "Strong and tall" compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing. ------------------ The Noldor are noted for their height and strength from their beginning: "...and they [the fourth group of Quendi found] were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung." Appendix to Quendi and Eldar (the Awakening Legend). The other groups have no similar physical descriptions made. -------------------- Quote: Perhaps they are "strong and tall" compared to Men? Probably not particularly. -------------------------- I would say probably yes. That is compared to Men (in general) on average. ----------------------- Quote: Taller on the averge than the Bëorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant? ---------------------- The way I interpret it is that the Hadorians were the tallest of the Edain (until they interbred and became less distinct) and rivalled the Noldor (on average). The Sindar and Beorians were shorter (on average) and perhaps more alike in height. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion