[Lord of Angmar]

Anyway, the first part I do not recognize at all as mine, sorry I can't reply to that

I was, of course, replying to Morgoth the Great's post.

This is a theory that I have, it may seem quite excentric but I beg you to listen to it before you judge it. The theory is that the elves and elf-friends were in fact the blockers of development in Middle Earth.

Perhaps I misunderstood your semantics. By saying development, I thought you meant 'progress', which would have positive implications. The term 'blockers' has a distinctly negative stigma. Therefore I thought that you were implying that the Elves were impeding positive progress, which I would entirely disagree with.

And Thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.(Iluvatar)

This quote has been used and misinterpreted countless times in these fora. This quote was not meant to imply that everything done within the confines of Ea is good. Nor does it imply that Melkor was acting on Iluvatar's will when he waged war upon Middle Earth, or that Iluvatar ever intended for Melkor to do so. It means what it says: nothing can be created that does not have its uttermost roots in Iluvatar, since he was the original Creator. It is simple creationist logic: if everything began with One, then everything has its source in One.

Do you not think that there were other reasons for Gondor being at the height of it's power before such a great war?

I think that one of the main reasons was their relationship with the Elves, specifically Gil-Galad in Lindon and Elrond in Imladris.

The elves did not invent anything Illúvatar did not want them to invent from the beginning, and thus it was not inventions, while men used the materia of Eä to form new things, for good and bad.

I believe your view on this matter is skewed. What you seem to be implying--and I do not wish to put words in your mouth but the above quote speaks for itself--is that the Elves did not have the ability to exercise free will and that they had no power of sub-creation. I strongly disagree. While Elves may have been influenced by Iluvatar and while Iluvatar may have wished for them to create the ships (or gems, or anything else that they created), this does not take away the fact that they are the sole inventors and the idea of their creations originated with them just as much as Mannish creations originated with Men. I entirely disagree with your statement that the works of the Elves cannot be considered 'theirs'. Iluvatar foresaw their creations, but that does not mean he can claim responsibility for the final work.

men are creators as well as destroyers, but sometimes, those two are not very far away from eachother

I agree with this statement entirely, and I apologize if I came off as too judgemental in my last post.

Cheers!
-Angmar

[ August 12, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]