[Måns]

Yes. That is one of the downsides of not having english as your first language, you translate words without thinking of a slight change in what it implies, just as I just did. Well, development is realy the only word for it , possibly change btut hat does not perfectly describe the innovation involved.

I know of the many misinterpretations of this quote, but the second part is important, where he says that it will only make his creation wonderful. It is connected with the pre-first world war emotion, that no good can be without good and ultimately that life is not as beautiful if it is not at peril at times. This is how the famous line should be interpreted correctly, it is not good, but it is the will of the Creator that it should happen in so much that he did not stop it which he doubtlessly could have done. He mourns it, but if it was not his will he would stop it, he waated the world to be happy, but as he says, the vision would not have been so glorious and great without it.

"'Know that I love the world and tha tit is a room of play for Eldar and men, who are my bleoved children. But when eldar come they will be the fairest and most lovely of all that is created, and their knowledge of beauty will be greater and they will be ahppier than men. But to them, I will give anotehr gift, anew and greater.' And thus he decided that men would be given a freeforce within them that meant that they, within the boundaries of the worlds powers and substances and possibilities, would eb able to shape and form their lives even beyond hte original music of the Ainur that is as everything else's fate."

The Boook of Lost Tales 1, poorly translated from Swedish by Måns.
I thought this was commonly accepted, sorry for not quoting this before. Well, this proves the first half of my argumetn, that is quite obvious, that men were the developers with the free will to create or destroy what the elves and ainur could not, since they were bound by the song, that was their fate. The scond part of the theory is more complex and I be to refer to my earlier posts.

I do not. Firstly, I don't see it strange that a society declines after such a war (that could not have happened in medieval europe) and when it is governed by elf friends. The ones that escaped from Númenor were the elf friends, and this was true to a higher degree when spekaing of the nobles. Elendil's words when he comes to middle earth is quenya as is his oath ofalliance to Gil Galad. They are entirely indoctrinated by the superiority of elvish culture and they think it great. Of course their aims become the same, the protecting the remnant of the elves and preserving elvish culture in their minds. This passed on through the generations and was weakened during the time fo Denethor but we must bear in mind one thing. He totally resented the elvish wisdom and heritage, which is not good. What I speak of is maintaining the elven wisdom but not to any prize, it was essential that one kept that as a platform. That is how the men of Númenor came so far, they knew the elvish wisdom and invented freely to it.

On elves and sub-creation, all that the elves did was predicted in the song, they could do nothing new as men could, as proved above.

Mayeb I was a bit itchy in the last post, mostly because I ahd left so many holes in the theory without explaining it and mistranslating into development but there is no other word for it,

With all respect, Måns