<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 78</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the debate turns canonical
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Quothe Aiwendil:
Tar-elenion: As I think about it more, your idea starts to make some more sense.
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Thank you. Did you read the Aragorn's Ancestors thread, where this originated in? Though long and involved, it probably offers more overall clarity as well as a more specifically opposing veiw.
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If it were used, though, it would have to be done carefully.
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Certainly, that is why I emphasize looking over the full context (for example when I point out that JRRT never said Feanor was 'The King', only that he 'claimed' the kingship and this was not generally accepted, and even after he claims it, Feanor, when speaking of himself, does not refer to himself as King, only 'heir' (it could be argued that he realized he needed a more general acceptance (such as Fingolfin received after the rescue of Maedhros) before he could actually solidify (as it were) his claim into a fact).
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I still don't think that Fingolfin would have outright claimed the high kingship, at least not before Alqualonde and/or Feanor's abandonment of his host. Certainly there was strife between them during the whole Darkening of Valinor episode.
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The time reference that JRRT gives us is:
"Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance to his claim to be the cheiftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe..."
So we have a timeframe of between the death of Finwe and before the Helcaraxe is crossed. This is however narrowed in the next part:
"...and so enraged Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reason s for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships."
So Fingolfin prefixed 'Finwe' to his name before Feanor fled with the ships of the Teleri. But he does this to further pursue his claim (thus he had been claiming the before the prefixing).
Finwe is slain and the Kinslaying takes place in 1495 (the Kinslaying seemingly very late and it seems to follow soon upon the Noldor leaving Tirion), Feanor abandons Fingolfin in 1497. The Noldor are noted to have set out from Tirion in over haste after the speech of Feanor, but as soon as they are gathered for their setting out dissention arises and most will not accept Feanor's leadership, prefering Fingolfin. It seems to me the Fingolfin would not have started claiming the Kingship until after the dissention arose when Feanor attempted to marshal the Noldor, and the Noldor said, as it were, 'who is Feanor that he should command us, we want Fingolfin to continue ruling us, if he will come'. At this point there are effectively two hosts, Feanor and his loyalists in the van, and the larger host under Fingolfin. Feanor realizing they will need ships quickly makes his way to Alqualonde, where he is refused, and takes the ships by storm. The rapidity of the events make it seem unlikely that Fingolfin would have been actively pursuing his claim at that point. It is likely after the 'Kinslaying' (and the likely more open discontent with Feanor that resulted) that Fingolfin began to actively put forth his claim. But it may well have been in mind since the majority of the Noldor did not accept Feanor's initial claim remained firmly behind Fingolfin.
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Nonetheless, any narrative incorporating the material in the Shibboleth would have to be very careful not to contradict Fingolfin's oath, in words or in spirit.
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Keeping in mind what JRRT wrote on the matter (implying that Finglfin was keeping his oath merely by going into Exile with Feanor).
Of course also depending on exactly what was meant by the Fingolfin's oath, he could well have been contradicting it himself when "Fingolfin and Turgon his son therefore spoke against Feanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords".
Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>
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Tar-Elenion
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