Thread: Evil things
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:51 AM   #74
davem
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Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I love these really abstruse debates!

Eru states that none may change the music in his despite - not that none may change the Music at all. Men are not bound by the Music. If Men had no freedom to change it they too would, knowingly or unknowingly, also be bound by it. The Music is not as fate to them. they can change it - if Eru agrees. I see the Fate of Numenor as being the classic example. The Valar constantly send messages to the Numenoreans, effectively asking them to stick within the bounds set by the Music, & the Numenoreans reject those pleas. The very fact that the Valar have to lay down their rulership & let Eru deal with the Numenoreans says to me that the Numenor thing was not in the Music, & came as a total shock to the Valar. The changing of the world was not forseen in the Music - Men introduced that change - though it wasn't the change they intended to bring about.

Thing is, I can't see Tolkien creating a world where true free will did not exist - at least for Men. It would be heretical - & while we have to be careful of Allegorical interpretations, we do know that he made every attempt to avoid anything which would directly contradict Christian teaching. Taking the Beowulf lecture as a key to understanding his approach, on one level we have to see the whole legendarium as the story of Man in a world of natural & supernatural forces, striving to live out his life, while the light lasts - those forces may not have freedom, but Men do, & so Men can be judged & held responsible, because Men have freedom.

Well, a bow is not a magical implement, & neither is a nuclear bomb - even in Middle Earth a distinction would be made between using a bow & using a ring of Power - in that any fool can use a bow!. To use, rather than be used by, a Ring of power takes a certain type of person -to be considered natural an ability, rule or force must apply to must apply to everyone. If only certain individuals posess an ability it is not 'normal' because its not the 'norm'. Magic is natural but not normal in ME.

The question then arises as to whether we can speak of this 'natural' force as having a 'nature', so that it could be used in a way that was against its own nature - but if its simply a force, then that doesn't apply. If its a force used by an individual then its a question of whether that individual is behaving according to their true nature when they use Magic - & the same would be true if we are talking about individuals using magic or any other force - even a bow - is the individual acting out of their own nature, or against it?
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