[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

I'm arguing that Mandos's decree may not be taken, quite so literally--what I mean by the 'Arwen Anomaly' (I'm using proper noun form, on purpose), is the precedent set that is discordant with Mandos's initial decree in Valinor (though as you point out, with your citation, there was a modification or addendum he made to his initial decree. Nice materials, btw).

Mandos *specifically* says (in the Silmarillion, when Earendil made it to Valinor) that the --sons-- of Earendil and Elwing are to be covered by his Decree.

Arwen--female--yet, she had the Choice of the Peredhil.

I might argue that we should merely interpret Mandos as commenting upon the Peredil he knew would come of the Half Elves he knew *of*, and that it is unclear what is meant for unions of Elves and Men beyond the Line of Earendil.

Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.

Exactly. I wonder what he would say about Gilmith and Galador, daughter and son of Mithrellas.

Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

See prior.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Only Arwen, really, was granted 'other doom' (access to immortality, given Mandos's Decree for the *sons* of Earendil. Elladan and Elrohir were sons and covered, quite consistently, by Mandos's initial decree (but, here again, another inconsistency in the mythology. Elrond specifically says to Aragorn--Tale of Aragorn and Arwen--that **all** his children needed to depart with him to get immortality. This makes no real sense when looking at what Mandos's decree initially posited. Surely, (theoretically), the sons coulda just said 'see ya in 50 dad--we wanna hang around a bit longer. Galadriel did. So did you. So we wrote to Mandos and said 'I wanna live forever, but dad's boat's goin' too early)

Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.

Yes. But provisionally. What we don't know is 'would they have', had Mithrellas not disappeared, and, for example, chucked her kids on a boat at Edhellond, to go into the Uttermost West.

I doubt, highly, that the boat would have been refused access to Valinor, don't you think? My point goes to 'which way the kids go'--I like ma more than pa--daddy Numenorean's a bit of a hard *** and likes too much drink and wants all that human-y stuff. I like ma's lamenting singing. She makes Waybread and I like what the Lady Galadriel said to me in Lorien. Lorien's way cooler for me (said Gilmith) than daddy's sword stuff'.

Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

I really wonder about all that Salic Succession stuff. This is a contravention of the Laws of Succession, modified in Numenor. Somewhat presumptious of any Gondor-ian delegate, to do this. I wonder. I need to look more closely at materials on the Stewardship and Gondor's line of succession before I comment further.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

I wonder about this too. I think Finrod would not be speaking of those of the Eldar or Elves who broke with tradition. I think he was speaking more like a monarch, like Queen Lizzy, England, and all that stuff about 'princes do thy duty and don't marry a commoner'. There must have been some radical elements amongst the Elves, from time to time, surely.

I do like the idea, though, of the females of the Line of Silmarien of Andunie, in Gondor--all the second and subsequent born--Princesses of Gondor, trundling off to marry Imrahil's Elvishy crew. Seems quite likely, as I think you suggested.

I really need to look a little more closely at 'what' exactly, they did after Earnur. I wonder if Tolkien ever commented about Elros's blood being present in Imrahil's line. One would of thought it would have been mentioned, by *someone* in LotR at the Pelenor?

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.

Interesting. I'd have to agree with you on this. He was 'fair' enough that Legolas was quite taken by him. Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).