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**lindil** · 03-25-2001, 04:18 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 519</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the debate turns canonical

Aiwendil related;"<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Personal preferences and opinions should not be what a canonical
Silmarillion is based upon. Aside from the main point that this is
Tolkien's work and not ours (and thus, it is only his opinions that
should be considered), there is also the matter of differing tastes.
I, for instance, find the later Q.S. story in which Feanor and
Fingolfin were, at least in words, reconciled, to be more poignant.
If there is to be any attempt at a single canonical Silm., then it
must be based not on anyone's opinions and preferences, but on
textual continuity and faithfulness to <hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately , the end of your sentence seemd to get chopped off, but there are several points prior which I will comment on.

re: personal preferences, Agreed One [or a group] should have a set of coherent principles.I do think several valid approaches and goals could be pursued.

1]saulotus a past poster here favored and had indeed worked up a good many Myth's Transformed chapters for a new silmarillion. It was all based on solid principles. Use the last conceptions regardless the literary cost.
2] an elfwine / eriol / england Silmarillion

3] An old/flat world Silmarillion that uses latest conceptions and longer resencions and older detail not contradicting later compressed versions, whenever they can be worked in w/ out devastation to the general story.
for instance Galadriel can still depart seperately but w/ out Celebrimbor as this would countradict LotR.
Druedain can be inserted into 1st age.
This is the favored approach of the project here although no final decisions have been reached, we have drafts of 1/2 of the Darkening of Valinor.

I think refering to your post Aiwendil that you think the Shib. conception of the departureof the Noldor is incompatible w/ the Morgoth's Ring version
[In my conception War of the Jewels and Morgoth's Ring become the primary sources [and Lost Road as needed] not 77 [as the Silmarillion published in that year is often called here]. there are potential exceptions, but in general The entirity of the scenario in Valinor would come from X and be supplemented w/ sourceslike Shibboleth or Quendi and Eldar or even [rarely] Lost tales when additional detail/later conceptions can be worked in w/ out recourse to editorial glosses or creative writing.

Tar - Elenion seems to simply and ingeniously propose using both Feanor's 'reconciliation' w/ Fingolfin and retain Shibboleth's conception of Fingolfin refussing to relinquish the claim.
At first blush I found this unmanagable but after Elenion clarified the point and I can see that the 2 situations may well be reconciled by the fact that Fingolfin promised to follow in the context of Finwe being alive. [ Feanor nontheless felt betrayedI am sure though much of Fingolfin's motivation was prob. that his people made it clear they felt Feanor was prob. to ubstable to rule the Noldor] .

I have been pondering if others are interested a weekly Canon topic that would be an aside from writing text but would actually investigate [and yes lindil is contemplating it a poll] 1 issue of the canon as we are doing now [and have done sporadically and only semi-methodically- in the past] The Origin of Orcs thred is a good example as are a few others.

Any takers?
Any modifications to the idea?

I agree btw whole heartedly w/ your points on choosing canon and texts carefully, Elenion. There is so much in UT and HoME that fills in the inumerable gaps of the Silm [77] and even the final versions of X and XI that all available resources should be up for consideration both for a new Silmarillion and for establishing a canon of 'ideas/details' .

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

03-25-2001, 04:18 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 519</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: the debate turns canonical Aiwendil related;"<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Personal preferences and opinions should not be what a canonical Silmarillion is based upon. Aside from the main point that this is Tolkien's work and not ours (and thus, it is only his opinions that should be considered), there is also the matter of differing tastes. I, for instance, find the later Q.S. story in which Feanor and Fingolfin were, at least in words, reconciled, to be more poignant. If there is to be any attempt at a single canonical Silm., then it must be based not on anyone's opinions and preferences, but on textual continuity and faithfulness to <hr></blockquote> Unfortunately , the end of your sentence seemd to get chopped off, but there are several points prior which I will comment on. re: personal preferences, Agreed One [or a group] should have a set of coherent principles.I do think several valid approaches and goals could be pursued. 1]saulotus a past poster here favored and had indeed worked up a good many Myth's Transformed chapters for a new silmarillion. It was all based on solid principles. Use the last conceptions regardless the literary cost. 2] an elfwine / eriol / england Silmarillion 3] An old/flat world Silmarillion that uses latest conceptions and longer resencions and older detail not contradicting later compressed versions, whenever they can be worked in w/ out devastation to the general story. for instance Galadriel can still depart seperately but w/ out Celebrimbor as this would countradict LotR. Druedain can be inserted into 1st age. This is the favored approach of the project here although no final decisions have been reached, we have drafts of 1/2 of the Darkening of Valinor. I think refering to your post Aiwendil that you think the Shib. conception of the departureof the Noldor is incompatible w/ the Morgoth's Ring version [In my conception War of the Jewels and Morgoth's Ring become the primary sources [and Lost Road as needed] not 77 [as the Silmarillion published in that year is often called here]. there are potential exceptions, but in general The entirity of the scenario in Valinor would come from X and be supplemented w/ sourceslike Shibboleth or Quendi and Eldar or even [rarely] Lost tales when additional detail/later conceptions can be worked in w/ out recourse to editorial glosses or creative writing. Tar - Elenion seems to simply and ingeniously propose using both Feanor's 'reconciliation' w/ Fingolfin and retain Shibboleth's conception of Fingolfin refussing to relinquish the claim. At first blush I found this unmanagable but after Elenion clarified the point and I can see that the 2 situations may well be reconciled by the fact that Fingolfin promised to follow in the context of Finwe being alive. [ Feanor nontheless felt betrayedI am sure though much of Fingolfin's motivation was prob. that his people made it clear they felt Feanor was prob. to ubstable to rule the Noldor] . I have been pondering if others are interested a weekly Canon topic that would be an aside from writing text but would actually investigate [and yes lindil is contemplating it a poll] 1 issue of the canon as we are doing now [and have done sporadically and only semi-methodically- in the past] The Origin of Orcs thred is a good example as are a few others. Any takers? Any modifications to the idea? I agree btw whole heartedly w/ your points on choosing canon and texts carefully, Elenion. There is so much in UT and HoME that fills in the inumerable gaps of the Silm [77] and even the final versions of X and XI that all available resources should be up for consideration both for a new Silmarillion and for establishing a canon of 'ideas/details' . Lindil* is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.