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Bêthberry · 03-17-2005, 12:52 PM

littlemanpoet set up a lovely discussion with a new aspect for that old chestnut Tom Bombadil in his thread The Trickster in LotR.

Not everyone accepted the possibility that Tolkien could radically expurgate the malevolent aspects of the trickster god to create merely a mischievious figure in Bombadil. I, however, do think that something like that was indeed 'behind' Tolkien's thoughts on "The Master", as well as many other folklorish ideas such as the Green Man whose images grace so many cathedrals in England.

But now let's consider the distaff side! Goldberry, daughter of the River woman, who with her washing days apparently controls the weather and possibly the seasons.

Back some time on threads whose titles I can no longer remember we have discussed the aspects of the Persephone myth which partially clothe the Goldberry figure. And I also recall a discussion with davem about water figures in ancient British folklore, the terryfying hags who haunt the rivers and streams and lure unsuspecting souls to their doom.

However, I have just discovered that the word 'berry' also has some reference to ancient legend. In Scottish legend, there is the cailleach bheur who seems to have fit the crone aspect of the triple goddess figure. She was the Witch of Winter who ruled from Hallowe'en to Beltane. Actually, there are many versions of the figure, who seems to be associated also with water and the protections of deer. The crone aspect is the hideous frightful aspect, in old legend, but in Northern Ireland, the figure was associated with Spring and the maiden aspect.

One pronunciation for this figure, indeed, a very name, was "Cally Berry." Now, what are the odds that Tolkien with his love of philology would have known of this name and taken 'berry' as the root for the name of Tom's wife?

He would have, of course, been doing with Goldberry what I think he did with Tom, expurgate the chaotic, negative aspects. Tolkien did not stumble as Milton did in the depiction of evil.

Just a little bit of background for she with whom Frodo is so smitten. What do you think? Too much a stretch?

03-17-2005, 12:52 PM	#1
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,979	The Trickster's Consort littlemanpoet set up a lovely discussion with a new aspect for that old chestnut Tom Bombadil in his thread The Trickster in LotR. Not everyone accepted the possibility that Tolkien could radically expurgate the malevolent aspects of the trickster god to create merely a mischievious figure in Bombadil. I, however, do think that something like that was indeed 'behind' Tolkien's thoughts on "The Master", as well as many other folklorish ideas such as the Green Man whose images grace so many cathedrals in England. But now let's consider the distaff side! Goldberry, daughter of the River woman, who with her washing days apparently controls the weather and possibly the seasons. Back some time on threads whose titles I can no longer remember we have discussed the aspects of the Persephone myth which partially clothe the Goldberry figure. And I also recall a discussion with davem about water figures in ancient British folklore, the terryfying hags who haunt the rivers and streams and lure unsuspecting souls to their doom. However, I have just discovered that the word 'berry' also has some reference to ancient legend. In Scottish legend, there is the cailleach bheur who seems to have fit the crone aspect of the triple goddess figure. She was the Witch of Winter who ruled from Hallowe'en to Beltane. Actually, there are many versions of the figure, who seems to be associated also with water and the protections of deer. The crone aspect is the hideous frightful aspect, in old legend, but in Northern Ireland, the figure was associated with Spring and the maiden aspect. One pronunciation for this figure, indeed, a very name, was "Cally Berry." Now, what are the odds that Tolkien with his love of philology would have known of this name and taken 'berry' as the root for the name of Tom's wife? He would have, of course, been doing with Goldberry what I think he did with Tom, expurgate the chaotic, negative aspects. Tolkien did not stumble as Milton did in the depiction of evil. Just a little bit of background for she with whom Frodo is so smitten. What do you think? Too much a stretch? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.