[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by LmP

Have you read the two Adventures of Tom Bombadil poems? In the first one, Goldberry trickes him, pulling on his beard that dangles over the Withywindle (that she is apparently swimming or living in, and steals his hat. Is she flirting?

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;

This suggests that Goldberry is trying to lure Tom to her mother's house, whatever that might mean.

Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master

Yet it seems that Goldberry wants to make out that Tom has somehow tamed or captured her. Which is the truth? Who captured who?

In folk tales, female water spirits do seem to have a malevolent side, so perhaps Goldberry did have this, but somehow Tom was able to tame her where other 'men' would have failed, possibly as he is no 'mere mortal' himself. Goldberry could have been some kind of 'lure' to tempt mortals into the water, whereupon they would be taken to her mother. However, the idea of her mother is interesting, as it could mean just another aspect of Goldberry herself. When tempting mortals into following her she could be young and beautiful, but as soon as they have been trapped she could become the more sinister 'mother' figure herself.

Originally Posted by davem

Another thing that occurs is that Tom/Goldberry are childless while Shelob seems incredibly fecund - though she does tend to eat her brood.

I wonder how Shelob reproduced? In nature, male spiders are sometimes smaller than the female, and she will often eat her mate once she is through with him. Only the strongest of the brood of such creatures will escape being eaten by the mother, surely the ultimate survival of the fittest? A mother who eats her own children is wholly unexpected, and the very opposite of what we would find acceptable, so there could be something of the trickster in Shelob and others like her.

Tom and Goldberry seem to represent nature itself (as do the Ents, who are also lacking any Entings). This might mean that their very nature represents fertility itself so children would not be necessary or expected.