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Old 12-06-2015, 11:06 PM   #119
Ivriniel
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Ivriniel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
Wait a minute, I've got it. Tolkien first drew a connection between the Necromancer and the Ring while working on a sequel to The Hobbit in late 1937 / early 1938, but then went back in time to 1933 and told his younger self all about it, is that it?
In response to the ? (question mark), No. Elaborating:

It's to go -too- far into the terminator conceptions to put it that way, Pitchwife, though the movies assist to clarify an idea. Tolkien did not write a time-travel series. He was very interested in time travel though, as we (perhaps) see in echoes of Alboin's ponderings in our world, as his mind cast back to Numenor from Earth. Middle Earth as three ages, predating 'real modern history' is not a new idea. He also had a writing project about it (time travel) with CS Lewis who focussed on Space.

The extent to which I draw upon the Time feature makes the point about the real time between 1933 and 1937 primarily. Because The Hobbit was in readiness, basically (almost) by 1933, I'm making the argument that in that 4 years (and you can add 1 or 2 if you're being liberal), that's a lot of real time to ponder Necromancers, rings, even Rings.

The trouble is, the Letter/s in question don't point to how the 'Terminator-esque' authoring style kicked in to bridge the Hobbit with LotR. There were other choices. I suppose he could have 'greed-ised' the Arkenstone as an artefact of secret evil, undetected. Or varied the Hobbit to greed-ise the Arkenstone. Or any such varied plotlines.

The extent to which I speak of 'Tardis' 'Terminators' etc goes to the human mind in writing novels. You don't have the final plot done in your head. Some I suppose do. Most authors probably back-edit, or add plots, etc as they go. Tolkien had messy notes. He says in 1938, that what should have happened is that:

was said upstream under as
item 4.:

Quote:
4. Three More Letters, Highlighting the "Transmutation Hypothesis"

Letter 26, dated 4th of March 1938, Turning to his own works, Tolkien said that he had reached the end of the third chapter in the sequel to The Hobbit, but that the story had taken an unpremeditated turn (Three is Company. That is but one chapter beyond the Shadow of the Past and again his mind was evolving the narrative. Then, In letter31 (24th of July 1938), he states the book should have come in in 1938 not 1937 for [edit of prior entry: 'in' not 'for'] time for the sequel in 1939. And that the Hobbit was not intended a prequil, because he was preoccupied with the Silmarilloion. However, the context, always with his communications to the Publisher was about anxiety about delays, appeals to understanding, tacit complaint because his loved Silmarillion was not published. Then on the 31st of August, 1938, letter 33. About LotR flowing along.
This letter series is important. Tolkien saying "it should have been" 1938 means something. Specifically, just four examples are given. These are by no means the spectrum of internal motivations that can be imputed (this one is specifically for Morthoron) in the paralingual text (or in the paralinguistic features) of the text*.

Quote:
a. 'in hindsight, Unwin and Allen, I should have contacted you earlier, to let you know that I had an idea about the Hobbit, and can we -- pull -- the publication and -- I have this variation that I should have put in, some time ago, but didn't, and it fits better'. ***A 'hindsight/Inspired Post-Hoc basic imaginary motivational system***

or

b. 'it should have been 1938, because I needed time'. For whatever reason, an idea came to me sometime earlier. ***A 'time-pressed/stressed/I avoid you'*** motivational construct. Common in relationships with publishers.

c. I didn't imagine though that it was going to matter, thinking that when I finished it in 1933, I hadn't expected it was going to get published, and when I first gave it CS Lewis, I hadn't much considered necromancers and rings, but it has since occurred to me that there are two obvious joiners: Ring and Saurons, but you know guys (Allen and Unwin) it's just so difficult communicating with Editors, and it would have meant lots of expence and typing, and there's a war raging. London just got bombed and I'm worried about my family, so I didn't prioritise re-working the 1933 manuscript into a the prequel or -- any of its various possible structures, until life just overcame me with its popularity. ***An 'avoidance/expense' motivation to explain a delayed response***


or

d. Look guys (Allen and Unwin), you're just really difficult to negotiate with and youZ have rejected my Silmarillion so many times, I just hate asking you for anything. Here, have my bedside tale. It helped calm my kids during the war, but I had my Silmarillion quite handy in my head, and really, a Ring was quite early on in my mind, but RACK off publishers, and do what you want with the book I DON'T want to really passionately publish, and GIVEN THAT you DON'T want to publish the mythology, WHO CARES, whether or not I turn it in a Ring. I hate you publishers. Tired. Good night. ***a RESENTMENT/REJECTION/ABANDONMENT/SHAME motivational system. I go for this one, because he was a stoic, reserved, Anglo Saxon of the then Christian mind. Lots of shame. Lots of fear of social outcasting for deviating from the dominant social milieu and

e. Ungoliantisations of Manwe's backside, hindsighted, through Eonwe's purple hair. ***A IVRIENIEL IS STUPID BUT STILL NAUGHTY SOMETIMES motivation, because - maybe you guys one day will find out, what life and death experiences I've been through, and narrowly survived to live with a sense of humour.***
They're just three (hahahaha - has anyone picked up that I deliberately, do this, just a weeee bit) options (three options). I understand in Letters he talks about having 'used up' all his 'favourite' Lore things in the Hobbit. But that's just really not quite 'true'. Obviously not. The Silmarillion was concurrently ready and available in 1933. As IF an English Professor socialised by the then Anglo Saxon traditions at sparingly sharing internal feelings, in a STOIC world was GOING TO EVER share his private thoughts to a publisher or to anyone, deeply, except PERHAPS, his wife, and son. PERHAPS, Christopher knows only somewhat of the story.

We just don't know exactly 'when' he morphed the mythology? of the Hobbit {and - recall that it really goes the other way - he wrote a 'dancing Dark Lords' version of the Silmarillion for his children. Really, it was the Hobbit that was 'morphed' --AWAY--from the extant pre-existent mythology, not the other way around. He didn't 'morph' the Hobbit's mythology TO BECOME Silmarllion-ised. This goes to Morthoron's 'amplification' theory. That's a whole nuther item}. It's possible that he knew by 1937 {that there was a R-ing in his head, while the actual manuscript was being PRESSED} and hadn't known how to halt the publication machinery. It's not 2015, where halting and re-starting publication can be done in a day.

And as I said, the Silmarillion was concurrent. He 'goblin-ed' instead of 'Orc-ed' and 'Bard-ed' instead of 'Numenorean-ised'. But Orcrest and Glamdring and Gondolin and Gundabad, and Numenor - all already in his head - and written in the 'voice of narrative drama' not children's tales.

So - the ring. We just don't know exactly when from1933 onwards he morphed it, internally, into Sauron's 'reason' for Numenor to return to Middle Earth in the Last Alliance to defeat him.

The Last Alliance, was a concept, cut in stone in his pre-Hobbit materials.

[Edit] for Morthorond. Perhaps you might like to comment on paralinguistic facets of textual analysis. I take it from your reasoning style at the Boards that you've read a great deal and that you are a very gifted scholar. Your vocabulary is extensive and exemplary. Otherwise, no word - no brainer - the thread's nearly done.[/edit]

Last edited by Ivriniel; 12-07-2015 at 05:30 AM.
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