The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spirit...

Elenhin · 08-02-2001, 03:16 AM

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I just can't conceive of Tolkien intending that human immortality lost to original sin would be a concept his world would explain away as a lie of Morgoth.<hr></blockquote>
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here...
Tolkien's world never had immortal Men. Their "immortality" is a tale apparently devised by the Edain, who fled from the Shadow, met Elves and thought that if they hadn't fallen, they'd be like the Elves.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tying in the Fall of Man to his mythology is an interesting speculation. Are you folk saying that Tolkien considered it?<hr></blockquote>
He not only considered it, it was an integral part of the history of Men. It was the reason for the westwart migration of the Edain (they were trying to escape from the Shadow).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It's ingenious, but possibly if Tolkien considered it, he might have rejected the connection as a prideful construct that should not have been introduced. I get the sense from his letters that he might have had such sensibilities.<hr></blockquote>
He tried to make his imaginary world consistent with his own world-view and as a conservative Catholic, he believed in the Fall. If Tolkien hadn't included the Fall of Men in Middle-Earth, he couldn't have thought that it was in any way related to our world.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tolkien largely does not treat with the religions (so-to-speak) of his Men. The High Men believed as did the Elves. But what of their first beginnings when they woke?<hr></blockquote>
In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien describes the Fall with some accuracy. Basically, Melkor came among Men and incited them to evil with fear and bribes. No Man avoided it, as they were all still living in Hildorien. This was the Shadow the Edain were fleeing from, but they were not wholly pure themselves: they had begun to see the Gift of Men as a punishment.

So: Men were not immortal, but Bombadil was. So, Bombadil can not be a Man.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

08-02-2001, 03:16 AM	#16
Elenhin Wight Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Vantaa, Finland Posts: 205	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> I just can't conceive of Tolkien intending that human immortality lost to original sin would be a concept his world would explain away as a lie of Morgoth.<hr></blockquote> I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here... Tolkien's world never had immortal Men. Their "immortality" is a tale apparently devised by the Edain, who fled from the Shadow, met Elves and thought that if they hadn't fallen, they'd be like the Elves. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tying in the Fall of Man to his mythology is an interesting speculation. Are you folk saying that Tolkien considered it?<hr></blockquote> He not only considered it, it was an integral part of the history of Men. It was the reason for the westwart migration of the Edain (they were trying to escape from the Shadow). <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It's ingenious, but possibly if Tolkien considered it, he might have rejected the connection as a prideful construct that should not have been introduced. I get the sense from his letters that he might have had such sensibilities.<hr></blockquote> He tried to make his imaginary world consistent with his own world-view and as a conservative Catholic, he believed in the Fall. If Tolkien hadn't included the Fall of Men in Middle-Earth, he couldn't have thought that it was in any way related to our world. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tolkien largely does not treat with the religions (so-to-speak) of his Men. The High Men believed as did the Elves. But what of their first beginnings when they woke?<hr></blockquote> In Morgoth's Ring* Tolkien describes the Fall with some accuracy. Basically, Melkor came among Men and incited them to evil with fear and bribes. No Man avoided it, as they were all still living in Hildorien. This was the Shadow the Edain were fleeing from, but they were not wholly pure themselves: they had begun to see the Gift of Men as a punishment. So: Men were not immortal, but Bombadil was. So, Bombadil can not be a Man. -- Elenhin "My god, it's full of stars!"</p>