[Roa_Aoife]

I, like Boromir have only skimmed through this thread. (I hate joining these kind of things late- there's so much to catch up on.)

Anyways, I saw the thread and I had to reply. Mostly becausae I find myself holding to different veiwpoints over what appears to be two different topics. The questions as I see them are in two sets.

The questions specific to this topic:

1) Why do some people prefer "bad" characters over "good" characters?

2) Does doing so make said people morally wrong, bad, corrupt, etc?

And the more broad questions that have arisen as a result:
3) Is the morality of literature seperate from the morality of reality?

4) Can morality be relative based on culture or at all?

At least, this is what I have percieved to be the main questions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

So then,

1) Because as many have said, the bad guys are more interesting, more cool, more defined, in many circumstances. Because the good guys can be annoying. For example- I greatly dislike the Elves. I find them arrogant, and going back through Tolkien's history, they are responsible in a big way for the events surrounding the One Ring and Sauron's rise to power. And yet they still find time to look down on Men, who have done pretty much nothing but save their pretty little butts everytime they cause trouble. *grumble grumble*

On the other hand, my favorite character is Sam. One of my friends is a fan of Smeagol, and thinks Sam is "too noble, too dull, too bland," etc. She likes Smeagol becuase he's interesting- he shows conflict and uncertainty, whereas Sam never waivers.

And yet, we both are die hard fans of Darth Vader. (Not Anakin, from the new movies. Vader, the original.) It's difficult to find a more black and white universe than that of Star Wars. It's Light vs Dark. And yet, fans of the movies and books alike are found in equal numbers on both sides.

My point is that different people find different things appealing. Some think bad guys are "cool" (like Vader), some think that they aren't. Some people like the ideals the the good guys up-hold, some think the good guys are a bunch of self-righteous, arrogant, legalistic morons (like the Jedi counsel). Explaining why each individual likes what they like is something only they can do, and sometimes it just boils down to, "I just do."


2)It really depends. Is this the person who laughs when the main bad guy pushes an old woman down the stairs? Or do they just find the bad guys more appealing, in an almost asthetically way? If it's the latter, I fail to see how it makes them immoral. I may disagree with my friend's view points about Smeagol, but I would have a hard time saying that she's a bad person for it. If, however, she thought everything Morgoth and Sauron did was right, funny, or generally appealing, she probably wouldn't be the kind of person I would be friends with.

It takes more than an unpopular opinion to make someone morally bad. It takes an entire personality built on the enjoyment of others' suffering. And, without knowing more about someone than thier opinion, I would abstain from making such a judgement.


3)Yes, and no. Everything we read, see and experience shapes our world view, whether we agree with it or disagree. Further more, the media and literature that is popular says a great deal about our current culture. In that sense, the two are not seperate. However, saying that a single work of fiction is equivalent is ludicrous. LOTR, no matter how insightful and well written and popular, does not define morality for the real world. While many religious themes are found through out it, it sets up its own morality. Tolkien may have had a message in it- that's been debated on end elsewhere- but it would be difficult to say that said message was about right and wrong, or something else entirely.


4) Oooh, the big one. I for one, have never believed that morality is relative. After all, we all agree that murder and genocide, whatever the culture, is wrong. We all agree that the mutilation and castration of women, though consider acceptable and even morally right by some cultures, is wrong. I do, however, believe that there is a difference between what is culturally accepted, or even legally defined, and what is morally right and wrong. It is arrogant to think that a custom of a culture is the only right way to do something. Unfortunately, all cultures think this way. In fact, something as siginificant as every single culture ever documented having the same view regarding anything is considered a phenomenon in Anthropology. It's called Ethno-centricity.

But, again there is a difference between the culturally acceptable, and morality. You can't excuse every misdeed as "coming from a different culture." Somethings are right, and somethings are wrong, no matter who you are or where you come from.

Maybe the Orcs viewed the Elves as evil oppressors, but they destroyed countless lives in the fight against them. They stole from each other, betrayed each other, burned and pillaged, and sought to destroy everything that was ever built.