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Old 09-19-2005, 10:58 PM   #22
mormegil
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All quotes are by TGWBS unless otherwise noted.

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Feanor cannot be held accountable for being poisoned by a god
Were others not equally poisoned, so to speak. Did not Finarfin have the same potential to believe the lies? No temptation to evil is a constant to all, it's how one handles said temptation that determines the strength of character. Feanor failed.

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if he halted and turned back then, he would look like an idiot. The text actually claims that the Teleri began the fighting:
See again my point is here, Feanor is egotistical and prideful. His pride will not allow him to turn back and face the justice of judgment. Well, the fact is he couldn't turn back because of his evil oath.

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Pg 94 in the Silmarillion

When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force. But the Teleri withstood him, and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn...
I see some interesting points here. Feanor waited until his strength was sufficient? Why? He foresaw violence and the need for his people to attack. My impression of the passage is that the Noldor marched in and began to take the ships after the Teleri forbade it. The Teleri grappled with the Noldor merely casting them into the sea to defend their property. When this began the Noldor drew their swords. It is also said that for the most part the Teleri only had slender bows. Tolkien didn't say they drew weapons, he singled swords. Feanor caused his host to attack first.

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Pg 94 again

Thus at last the Teleri were overcome, and a great part of their mariners that dwelt in Alqualonde were wickedly slain. For the Noldor were become fierce and desperate...
Tolkien even calls the slaying wicked.


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However, it was the Teleri throwing the Noldor into the sea that actually began the violence.
I would disagree and call wrestling to protect ones property as simply that, protection of property and not violence.

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This is where the romance comes in. The words Feanor uses are so beautiful, so moving. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. If that doesn't stir something in you, there's seriously something wrong.
I agree with you in part here. His words do move me. They are very powerful and influential, and yet the motive and desire he uses them for is rebellion and for his own motives. Not for good purposes.

I do not view Feanor as a tragic hero. He has free-will and was able to decide for himself which course of action to take. Remember that all elves in Aman were subject to the same lies and deceits of Morgoth; yet not all choose the path of evil that Feanor took.


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Posted by Angry Hill Troll
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this point. In Morgoth's Ring, as the Valar are discussing the matter of Míriel's death and its cause and significance, prior to proclaiming "The Statute of Finwë and Míriel", they generally come to the consensus that Míriel's death was "unnatural" and ultimately due to Melkor's taint on Arda.

Ulmo, for instance, says the following:

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The coming of Feänáro must proceed certainly from the will of Eru, but I hold that the marring of his birth comes from the Shadow, and is a portent of evils to come.
I haven't yet read Morgoth's Ring, however what I read from this is simply that Ulmo is saying that evil has entered into Aman. The taint was on Arda itself not Feanor.

The major difference between the two, Turin and Feanor, is that Turin was directly cursed so that any action he performed would turn to evil in the end. Turin could have had, and did have, very good intentions and yet anything done by him would turn for ill. Feanor never had such a curse and choose his own path. Feanor had agency and free choice and Turin had that but the outcome was directed to ill no matter what. Does that make Turin evil? No, of course not, he didn't have the level of control over the outcome of his actions that would be needed to declare him evil. Feanor did.

Sorry that this has become a Feanor thread but getting back on topic a bit more, I think Samwise is an unorthodox hero. He has very few of the typical characteristics of a hero. He isn't strong, skillful at much, besides gardening and cooking, he is slow of wit and all in all not overly intelligent. Yet he has common hobbit sense and undying loyalty. Sam becomes, to me anyway, the true hero in the whole history of the ring.
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