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Aiwendil · 09-21-2001, 06:42 AM

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Re: Bye Bye Balrogs

<<But... the project [rightly I think] decided to create a 'Revised' Sil [an animal of a different species]. I'm not sure when the 'canon' Sil issue crept back in, but it's a nasty monster --- who will bite you deeply if you look at it too closely.>>

As far as I knew when I came across this project, the goal was to create a canon Silmarillion, not merely a revised one. I imagine that the goal has gone through a lot of changes, however, some obvious and some subtle. I also have the feeling that no two people quite completely agree on what that goal is. It seems that every time the issue of our ultimate objective comes up, people are at odds.

Here's how I see it: Our objective is really twofold, though in practice both parts are accomplished at once. First, we are deciding on a canonical sequence of events for the Silmarillion. Second, we are compiling a narrative that represents this canonical sequence of event.

On the surface, it looks like step 1 is some sort of Tale of Years or Annals thing, and step 2 is a Quenta Silmarillion. But in practice, step 1 is the same as step 2, because it is the texts that define the canon. Or, to put it another way, since we know that what we decide is canon in step 1 will have to be represented by a narrative in step 2, and because we restrict ourselves to using JRRT's text, the canon we come up with in step 1 has to be exactly analogous to the text we're using in step 2. That's why we cannot do a Myths Transformed Silmarillion - because there would be no texts to support our canon.

There is, I think, a conflict in this project between the purely canonical side and the purely literary side. Some people want to let aesthetics play a larger role, and produce something of literary merit that would be enjoyable to new readers. Others want to strictly follow the principles, and ignore whatever difficult questions of style and aesthetics crop up. I think that in a way each of us is torn between these two. Having said that, I have to admit that I tend to lean toward the second option. The first would of course be more of a 'revised' Silmarillion and the second a 'canon' Silmarilion.

Here's my case for the latter: First, it will be much easier to accomplish as a group than would a revised Silmarillion. If we relax our application of the principles, more and more grey areas will appear. As anyone who has followed these discussions knows, we already have a tendency to endlessly debate disputed points. With personal aesthetics playing a larger role, it would be quite difficult to agree upon anything.

Second: In the long run, I think it would be more worthwhile to create a canon Silmarillion. As I said in an earlier thread:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don't see this project as an isolated effort that will end when we are done; I hope rather that it is one of the first steps toward a new interpretation of the Silmarillion. With all the constituent texts of the Silmarillion now available, it's possible for us to view it and use it in a multitude of ways. I think that trying to establish a canon version as we are doing here is a good start (of course, no single version can ever be considered authoratative), but I also think there's room for other versions.<hr></blockquote>

This canon Silmarillion might, I hope, be the basis for other projects, group or solo, including more literary and readable versions.

Third: Under our current principles, we cannot produce a work of much literary value. We are constrained to using only JRRT's texts and basically not introducing anything of our own. Thus, for instance, we have style discrepancies in the Fall of Gondolin, we have the great problem of proportion between the Narn/Wanderings of Hurin/Fall of Gondolin (taking up well over a hundred pages) and the brief "Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath". I've made this point several times:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If we were to use only the fullest accounts written by JRRT, we would end up with a book that looked something like this: about 150 pages on the elves in Aman and the darkening of Valinor, maybe another 100 on the first few centuries of the war, including Beren and Luthien, then about another 150 pages on Turin, followed by 30 pages of a detailed narrative on Hurin, and then about 20 pages of quick summary for an ending. Clearly these are not the proportions that Tolkien envisioned! Nor would it make for very good reading; the ending in particular, I think, would be disappointing (after 180 pages of the Turin saga leading to . . . nothing?). Casual readers would be disgusted, and true Tolkien fans would rather read HoME.<hr></blockquote>

So, for now, I think we have to stick with the canon idea. Perhaps we should have more of a discussion on this though, as I do consitently get the feeling that no one quite agrees on it.

</p>

[ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

09-21-2001, 06:42 AM	#60
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 65</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Bye Bye Balrogs <<But... the project [rightly I think] decided to create a 'Revised' Sil [an animal of a different species]. I'm not sure when the 'canon' Sil issue crept back in, but it's a nasty monster --- who will bite you deeply if you look at it too closely.>> As far as I knew when I came across this project, the goal was to create a canon Silmarillion, not merely a revised one. I imagine that the goal has gone through a lot of changes, however, some obvious and some subtle. I also have the feeling that no two people quite completely agree on what that goal is. It seems that every time the issue of our ultimate objective comes up, people are at odds. Here's how I see it: Our objective is really twofold, though in practice both parts are accomplished at once. First, we are deciding on a canonical sequence of events for the Silmarillion. Second, we are compiling a narrative that represents this canonical sequence of event. On the surface, it looks like step 1 is some sort of Tale of Years or Annals thing, and step 2 is a Quenta Silmarillion. But in practice, step 1 is the same as step 2, because it is the texts that define the canon. Or, to put it another way, since we know that what we decide is canon in step 1 will have to be represented by a narrative in step 2, and because we restrict ourselves to using JRRT's text, the canon we come up with in step 1 has to be exactly analogous to the text we're using in step 2. That's why we cannot do a Myths Transformed Silmarillion - because there would be no texts to support our canon. There is, I think, a conflict in this project between the purely canonical side and the purely literary side. Some people want to let aesthetics play a larger role, and produce something of literary merit that would be enjoyable to new readers. Others want to strictly follow the principles, and ignore whatever difficult questions of style and aesthetics crop up. I think that in a way each of us is torn between these two. Having said that, I have to admit that I tend to lean toward the second option. The first would of course be more of a 'revised' Silmarillion and the second a 'canon' Silmarilion. Here's my case for the latter: First, it will be much easier to accomplish as a group than would a revised Silmarillion. If we relax our application of the principles, more and more grey areas will appear. As anyone who has followed these discussions knows, we already have a tendency to endlessly debate disputed points. With personal aesthetics playing a larger role, it would be quite difficult to agree upon anything. Second: In the long run, I think it would be more worthwhile to create a canon Silmarillion. As I said in an earlier thread: <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> I don't see this project as an isolated effort that will end when we are done; I hope rather that it is one of the first steps toward a new interpretation of the Silmarillion. With all the constituent texts of the Silmarillion now available, it's possible for us to view it and use it in a multitude of ways. I think that trying to establish a canon version as we are doing here is a good start (of course, no single version can ever be considered authoratative), but I also think there's room for other versions.<hr></blockquote> This canon Silmarillion might, I hope, be the basis for other projects, group or solo, including more literary and readable versions. Third: Under our current principles, we cannot produce a work of much literary value. We are constrained to using only JRRT's texts and basically not introducing anything of our own. Thus, for instance, we have style discrepancies in the Fall of Gondolin, we have the great problem of proportion between the Narn/Wanderings of Hurin/Fall of Gondolin (taking up well over a hundred pages) and the brief "Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath". I've made this point several times: <blockquote>Quote:*<hr> If we were to use only the fullest accounts written by JRRT, we would end up with a book that looked something like this: about 150 pages on the elves in Aman and the darkening of Valinor, maybe another 100 on the first few centuries of the war, including Beren and Luthien, then about another 150 pages on Turin, followed by 30 pages of a detailed narrative on Hurin, and then about 20 pages of quick summary for an ending. Clearly these are not the proportions that Tolkien envisioned! Nor would it make for very good reading; the ending in particular, I think, would be disappointing (after 180 pages of the Turin saga leading to . . . nothing?). Casual readers would be disgusted, and true Tolkien fans would rather read HoME.<hr></blockquote> So, for now, I think we have to stick with the canon idea. Perhaps we should have more of a discussion on this though, as I do consitently get the feeling that no one quite agrees on it. </p> [ September 26, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]