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Aiwendil · 11-05-2001, 08:07 PM

As far as the Myths Transformed material relates to this project, I'd say it roughly divides into two groups: first that which deals with the change from flat to round earth and second, all the rest. The first we've decided not to use, and I think it would be unwise to reopen debate on that subject now that we've come so far.

The difficulty with the rest of the material is twofold: first, much of it stems from, or at least relates to, the new round earth version. Second, much of it is speculative. The real question for us is: what material can we reasonably integrate with the established narrative? These are my preliminary thoughts on some of the particular issues.

Orc Origins

Tolkien here goes through a number of ideas about the nature of Orcs, ranging from human to Maiar. His final (though quite uncertain) conclusion seems to be that Orcs are in the end indeed of Elvish origin. Even if we decide that this cannot be accepted as a definitive statement that Orcs were made from Elves, we certainly don't have a clear enough line of reasoning in this essay to make them mannish - especially considering that a mannish origin relies on a much earlier creation of men. I'd say we should leave this situation as it is in the '50s Silmarillion.

Melkor's Dissemination of Power

This is one element I think we can safely pick up from Myths Transformed. This is an element that does appear, albeit briefly, in the '77, when Morgoth returns to Middle-earth. I think perhaps we should lift these elements from the Myths Transformed material: at the Battle of the Powers, Melkor and Manwe both realize that Melkor himself has grown far less powerful; Melkor submits willingly, hoping to bring down Valinor from the inside; and perhaps also some mention of the dispersion of his power into the fabric of Arda (it would be nice if we could work in the "Morgoth's Ring" quote, but as this will be before Sauron's rings are introduced, the analogy doesn't seem quite appropriate. On the other hand, we do have to assume that he who reads the Silm. has read LotR.)

Boldogs

It would be very nice to incorporate something of this, but I'm not sure if there's any way.

Numenorean vs. Elvish Tradition

It's probably not best to make this explicit. The current project, at any rate, is not purported to be any actual document from Arda, but simply a coherent history of Middle-earth. No doubt the actual Quenta Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin.

11-05-2001, 08:07 PM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	As far as the Myths Transformed material relates to this project, I'd say it roughly divides into two groups: first that which deals with the change from flat to round earth and second, all the rest. The first we've decided not to use, and I think it would be unwise to reopen debate on that subject now that we've come so far. The difficulty with the rest of the material is twofold: first, much of it stems from, or at least relates to, the new round earth version. Second, much of it is speculative. The real question for us is: what material can we reasonably integrate with the established narrative? These are my preliminary thoughts on some of the particular issues. Orc Origins Tolkien here goes through a number of ideas about the nature of Orcs, ranging from human to Maiar. His final (though quite uncertain) conclusion seems to be that Orcs are in the end indeed of Elvish origin. Even if we decide that this cannot be accepted as a definitive statement that Orcs were made from Elves, we certainly don't have a clear enough line of reasoning in this essay to make them mannish - especially considering that a mannish origin relies on a much earlier creation of men. I'd say we should leave this situation as it is in the '50s Silmarillion. Melkor's Dissemination of Power This is one element I think we can safely pick up from Myths Transformed. This is an element that does appear, albeit briefly, in the '77, when Morgoth returns to Middle-earth. I think perhaps we should lift these elements from the Myths Transformed material: at the Battle of the Powers, Melkor and Manwe both realize that Melkor himself has grown far less powerful; Melkor submits willingly, hoping to bring down Valinor from the inside; and perhaps also some mention of the dispersion of his power into the fabric of Arda (it would be nice if we could work in the "Morgoth's Ring" quote, but as this will be before Sauron's rings are introduced, the analogy doesn't seem quite appropriate. On the other hand, we do have to assume that he who reads the Silm. has read LotR.) Boldogs It would be very nice to incorporate something of this, but I'm not sure if there's any way. Numenorean vs. Elvish Tradition It's probably not best to make this explicit. The current project, at any rate, is not purported to be any actual document from Arda, but simply a coherent history of Middle-earth. No doubt the actual Quenta Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin.