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Old 10-01-2002, 02:53 PM   #29
Child of the 7th Age
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Bethberry --

Quote:
However, I might be the only Downer who is interested in how themes are embodied and not just in the themes themselves.
Surely not the only one? LOL. Yes, this is a fascinating subject. And I know you speak with more authority in this vein than I.

My own approach is somewhat different. I sometimes think this is because I view things as an historian. I am extremely interested in the process by which Tolkien created these works: how he went from one layer of meaning to the next. This is why I found Littlemanpoet's earlier thread on the "religious" revisions so intriguing.

Take a look back at the England thread. I've done a lengty post which deals with my belief that at the 'core' of both the Silm and LotR stands Tolkien's desire to take the few scraps he had of Old English and transform them into the lore and poetry which were so sadly missing. How frustrating it must have been for him!! To see a character or poem mentioned in passing by Chaucer and yet have no access to the original. As I explained there, the English 'origins' were not just limited to the Shire. In fact, the purest statement of this "core of the onion", comes in the earliest writings of the Legendarium like BoLT 1 & 2.

If you want the detailed "proof" of this Anglo-Saxon core, take a look at the other thread as it's too long to duplicate here. Believe me! I went a little crazy.

It was only later that Tolkien continued on with multiple layers of meaning; he went beyond his original core to reach out towards other mythic traditions as well as to dig down inwardly to his own religious faith, and also to deal with questions such as narrative structure which you have identified. This layer-upon-layer approach to both meaning and structure is so typical of JRRT. You can almost see the points chronologically when one concern leads to another, although there is still considerable overlap. It was, for example, the religious/philosophical layer which he most explicitly addressed in the last 15 years of his life with the essays on Andreth, Adanel, and osanwe-kenta.

Given this view of a multi-layered onion (for lack of a better term!), your own thoughts on aesthetics do not, I think, contradict what I have said. They form yet another layer of meaning, although one which is imposed by a different means. I believe, howver, that my humble little core of Anglo-Saxon history and lore stands buried at the center. This was the original base and all else builds on it.

There's nothing like stretching your posts and ideas between two different threads to confuse people totally! But go take a look at the thread on "losing the basics" and let me know what you think.

Littlemanpoet-- This is regarding the statement below and the "soul of England".

Quote:
You are saying things that ring true for me, I just didn't know how to get there.
Please have a look at the other thread and see if it helps at all. I have dealt with the issue as much in terms of process as meaning.

The interesting thing to me is that the Shire, whom so many point to as the focal point of Tolkien's English identity, was actually a latecomer. The true soul of the epic lies not in Victorian and Edwardian England, but in the Old English tradition which forms the "core of the onion" for the Legendarium.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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