View Single Post
Old 10-06-2014, 07:03 AM   #135
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,514
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Nice to read your oppinion here again gondowe!

Starting with the easier matter: FG-TCG-00.2 the Rían sentence: I find your placement even beter then my own. It makes implicit what my first trial made explicit, that Annael told more about the battle then just the place of Hours death. Just for stylistical reasons I would prefer to change the 'Therefore' that gondowe changed to 'After' into a 'Thereafter'. Laading to
... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man}/And said Rían to Tuor:/ ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen. [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)] {Therefore}Thereafter Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...
Now to the more difficult part: About Ulmos counsel to prepare for the war to come. Even so I tried to prepair and even better gondowe's idea of Ulmo urging Turgon only to prepair for the great-battle (later know as the War of Wrath), I agree in part to Aiwendil that we should keep more of Ulmo's bidding. Anyhow I do not understand Aiwendil's argument that we change the meaning: What else than the War of Wrath could have been the outcome of Ulmo's counsel of war if Turgon would have agreed? Especially if we look for the promissed outcome of the battle ('whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more')? This outcome is (if at all) in any version of the legendarium as far as I can see only archivable with the help of the Valar (or probably Eru himself). As I read the text Ulmo does urge Turgon organise an 'all in' move from the free people of Middle-Earth. In such a case both Eru and the Valar would have probaly felt the necessity to grant some help.
In this context I think that the urgency is not to prepare for war, but to escape from Gondolin.
Still Gondolin stood long years before its fall. Why would be the urgency on the flight from the city? And what would have been the positive effect of such an early flight? For the preparation of a war as Ulmo aksed for that would have probaly taken the years that still were left.
Dramatically I think is necessary that after the message from Tuor/Ulmo, Turgon explains as a kind of complaint that the Valar don't want to hear their asking from help (from the messengers). And proudly they stay in Gondolin.
Agreed, but then it seems necessary to have Tuor asking him to send messengers first.

Anyhow I feel the discussion going in a wrong direction: Were is the textual suport for our arguments? The stronges moments in the history of this project have ever been when we were able to discover 'the truth' about a fact in Middle-Earth by adding some information / support from other texts. And the most terible once when we only exchanged our oppinions and when we found them incompatible came to a text by counting votes.

Aiwendil and I have given the support we see from the Grey Annals and the Tale of the Years. gondowe can you from your point of view answer Aiwendils question b):
Can ToY be interpreted in any way other than as a confirmation that Ulmo's counsel of war was still present?
The text in questions reads:
The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath. Maeglin Eol's son, sister-son of Turgon, was taken in the hills, and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote