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Old 12-09-2014, 01:01 PM   #150
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,438
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Ah gondowe, good to have your input again. I felt abit alone in this discussion and it seems I have overdone it a bit.

To make things easier, we should work first in outlines. The outline I follwed making my preposal had been (I added the two points mention from my last post):
- Tuor ask Turgon to prepare for a War against Morgoth (I would leave it open if he is to start that war or if he should only prepare for the war to come, no version of the text did clearly urge Turgon to an assault, even so LT hardly could be interpreted other than in that way).
- Turgon denies.
- Tuor speaks about the means (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- Turgon denies again.
- Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth and build with Ulmos help a fleet to sail back to Valinor (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

Since my argument did not convince you, I think you still wish to have Tour bid Turgon to abandon Gondolin from the first (right?). I myself find now that my arguemnts if take serois most mean that Ulmo can't ask Turgon to build a fleet, if he already fortold that Voronwe's ship was the last before Earendil.
To combine this, would that outline be okay for anybody:
- Tuor ask Turgon to prepare his people to abandon Gondolin and by that prepare for the War against Morgoth to come.
- Turgon denies.
- Tuor speaks about the means by which that war should be prepared (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- Turgon denies again.
- Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

Respectfuly
Findegil
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