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Rumil · 01-14-2005, 06:03 PM

Hi all,

Thanks for the welcome back ! (and to Saucepan Man on another thread)

Nilpaurion Felagund, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head in your description of this battle as a double envelopment. On maps, the one in the book itself shows the general layout, but for specifics like the hills and rough ground I've used the accounts of 1st and 2nd Isen in UT and for the narrow cutting, the account of Theoden et al crossing the river in LoTR.

As to the axemen, as Numenorean said, 'Men or orc-men' and 'axemen' are the phrases used. I'd guess that both 'races' might be included in this unit, as orc-men or halforcs are also mentioned at Helm's Deep and there is the halforc-esque charcter in Bree who was spying for Saruman. Perhaps this elite unit comprised the taller, more man-like halforcs if you know what I mean! They seem to have been Saruman's most fearsome fighters.

As Tuor said, its only with the benefit of hindsight that we can spot most 'errors'. The Rohirrim evidently expected Saruman to attack at a later date. I wonder if that was his original plan and he brought forward the date of the main invasion when he realised that hobbits were around, potentially carrying the ring. Maybe it would have suited him better if Wormtongue had a few months to confuse the war effort of Rohan without Theodred and Eomer able to interfere?

Saruman's numbers and the mobilisation of Rohan are linked subjects brought up by both Numenorean and Tuor. I'd agree that Erkenbrand, Grimbold and Elfhelm were courageous leaders but I doubt if they had sufficient political authority to defy Wormtongue's commands. Therefore Theodred and Eomer were Saruman's main initial targets, either for character assassination or real assassination!

On the numbers of Saruman's troops, the numbers I've come up with here are no more than guesses really. If I recall, the only real evidence we have for Saruman's main army is from Merry or Pippin, who descibe it as 10,000 at the least. Therefore I see two possibilities-

Maybe the hobbits greatly underestimated Saruman's force. This is apparently a very easy mistake to make, though usually numbers tend to be over-estimated when you compare eyewitness accounts with paylists etc for historical battles. Untrained observers (unlike Ghan-buri-Ghan) are often 10-fold out in their reckoning. Imagine trying to guess the number of spectators at a football match if you didn't know the capacity of the stadium! Also 'at least 10,000' seems quite a casual statement. Maybe some contingents of the army (eg. the Dunlendings) didn't meet up with the army until later?

Alternatively, perhaps Saruman only had 10,000 troops, give or take a few thousand. In that case, he was really exceptionally bold in launching an invasion of Rohan when numerically outnumbered by the Rohirrim about 2 to 1, and qualitatively outnumbered by lots more, as a knight of Rohan was ceratinly superior in combat to a bunch of snagas. (Rohan had 10 to 12,000 cavalry plus a number of local levies on foot, which may have totalled nearly 10,000 according to one reference in HoME). The only way he could hope to win in that case would be to demoralise and confuse the Rohirrim, which was going qiute nicely through Wormtongue, then to strike at the main centres of Rohan, Helm's Deep and Edoras, before a general mobilisation of Rohan took place. In this scenario, Wormtongue's interfering would be absolutely crucial. What a strange thought to have the good guys outnumbering the bad guys in one of Tolkien's battles!!

Just thought I'd add a link in to an old thread with some Battles of the Isen discussion, and lots of nice info from Bill Ferny mostly on Page 2 - where is the old horse thief these days anyway?

Visualising Middle Earth

PS. Ignore all the rubbish I was talking about panzerstecher swords!

By the way, Saruman seems to have a big reconnaisance advantage in these battles - the palantir and the crebain perhaps?

01-14-2005, 06:03 PM	#131
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Hi all, Thanks for the welcome back ! (and to Saucepan Man on another thread) Nilpaurion Felagund, I think you hit the nail exactly on the head in your description of this battle as a double envelopment. On maps, the one in the book itself shows the general layout, but for specifics like the hills and rough ground I've used the accounts of 1st and 2nd Isen in UT and for the narrow cutting, the account of Theoden et al crossing the river in LoTR. As to the axemen, as Numenorean said, 'Men or orc-men' and 'axemen' are the phrases used. I'd guess that both 'races' might be included in this unit, as orc-men or halforcs are also mentioned at Helm's Deep and there is the halforc-esque charcter in Bree who was spying for Saruman. Perhaps this elite unit comprised the taller, more man-like halforcs if you know what I mean! They seem to have been Saruman's most fearsome fighters. As Tuor said, its only with the benefit of hindsight that we can spot most 'errors'. The Rohirrim evidently expected Saruman to attack at a later date. I wonder if that was his original plan and he brought forward the date of the main invasion when he realised that hobbits were around, potentially carrying the ring. Maybe it would have suited him better if Wormtongue had a few months to confuse the war effort of Rohan without Theodred and Eomer able to interfere? Saruman's numbers and the mobilisation of Rohan are linked subjects brought up by both Numenorean and Tuor. I'd agree that Erkenbrand, Grimbold and Elfhelm were courageous leaders but I doubt if they had sufficient political authority to defy Wormtongue's commands. Therefore Theodred and Eomer were Saruman's main initial targets, either for character assassination or real assassination! On the numbers of Saruman's troops, the numbers I've come up with here are no more than guesses really. If I recall, the only real evidence we have for Saruman's main army is from Merry or Pippin, who descibe it as 10,000 at the least. Therefore I see two possibilities- Maybe the hobbits greatly underestimated Saruman's force. This is apparently a very easy mistake to make, though usually numbers tend to be over-estimated when you compare eyewitness accounts with paylists etc for historical battles. Untrained observers (unlike Ghan-buri-Ghan) are often 10-fold out in their reckoning. Imagine trying to guess the number of spectators at a football match if you didn't know the capacity of the stadium! Also 'at least 10,000' seems quite a casual statement. Maybe some contingents of the army (eg. the Dunlendings) didn't meet up with the army until later? Alternatively, perhaps Saruman only had 10,000 troops, give or take a few thousand. In that case, he was really exceptionally bold in launching an invasion of Rohan when numerically outnumbered by the Rohirrim about 2 to 1, and qualitatively outnumbered by lots more, as a knight of Rohan was ceratinly superior in combat to a bunch of snagas. (Rohan had 10 to 12,000 cavalry plus a number of local levies on foot, which may have totalled nearly 10,000 according to one reference in HoME). The only way he could hope to win in that case would be to demoralise and confuse the Rohirrim, which was going qiute nicely through Wormtongue, then to strike at the main centres of Rohan, Helm's Deep and Edoras, before a general mobilisation of Rohan took place. In this scenario, Wormtongue's interfering would be absolutely crucial. What a strange thought to have the good guys outnumbering the bad guys in one of Tolkien's battles!! Just thought I'd add a link in to an old thread with some Battles of the Isen discussion, and lots of nice info from Bill Ferny mostly on Page 2 - where is the old horse thief these days anyway? Visualising Middle Earth PS. Ignore all the rubbish I was talking about panzerstecher swords! By the way, Saruman seems to have a big reconnaisance advantage in these battles - the palantir and the crebain perhaps? __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion Last edited by Rumil; 01-15-2005 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Just a link and an extra thought and sp. !