I agree: great thread!
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Originally Posted by Formendacil
I think we could generalise by saying that there is a distinction between the "demonic" races on the one hand and the "humanoid" races on the other.
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Yes. The evil of the 'spiritual' beings is of a different order.
Melkor, Sauron, the Balrogs, and in my view, Shelob are more culpable for their evil.
As the higher order of Eru's self-aware creations, they had vastly more knowledge of his designs and their part in them, and hence, greater responsibility for their deliberate shunning of their intended role. I say, intended, because there is an underlying theme that even in their self-willed 'rebellion', they continued to serve Eru's plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
In the case of the fallen Maiar, the utter origins of evil are a bit more inscrutable: WHY does an immortal spirit that has directly experienced the presence of Ilúvatar choose Melkor? I couldn't say... though I think you can say that it was, in fact, a choice. Once chosen, though, this evil seems to be locked in. Sauron is the only evil Maia in the historical ages to be given a chance at redemption. Ossë, of course, flirted with evil in the prehistorical days, but ultimately didn't fall. Personally, I'm inclined to say that evidence suggests that incarnation--taking physical form and becoming bound to it--in some way represents the irrevocability of the choice made by the evil Maia. Once locked into a physical form--and a physical form (ie. as either a balrog or a dragon) that directly indicates the evil of the choice made--this becomes an unalterable part of their nature.
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You don't mention Saruman, but it seems clear that being clad in real bodies in mortal Middle-earth was a serious challenge to the Istari in keeping to their mission. Only Gandalf stayed true, and we don't really know why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
With regards to the orks and even trolls, however, I think that they have less choice in the matter--less personal choice, that is: they are clearly borne into it, and this is thrust upon them in a way even Melkor could not thrust it upon the balrogs. On other hand, orks and trolls do not seem to be quite as locked into it. Although predisposed toward evil, they seem to have the leeway to slough it off. This is harder to definitively argue: there are no actual cases of orkish repentance in Middle-earth, but I do think it is consistent with the portrayal of orks in The Lord of the Rings to say that they have more action-to-action free agency to choose good or evil--of course, given their environment and perhaps genetics, they are disposed to choose one way.
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Yes, I think the Orcs had been so trained and bred for war and service to evil for so many generations that it had become an ingrained part of the universal culture. They weren't above (or below) disrespect, or defiance toward their superiors, but that rebelloiusness led them not to any approximation of good, but only to a more petty sort of thievery, pillage, and murder.
Over time, without a Sauron or a Witch-king to focus them, I think the Orcs would gradually have gotten some of that out of their systems, and maybe a majority would eventually have assimilated themselves to life with Men.
Of course, their primeval Melkor-bred tendencies would never wholly disappear, as they're still seen in our (7th) Age world today.
