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Old 04-03-2001, 04:30 PM   #31
Tar Elenion
Shade of Carn Dm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 283
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 86
Re: Kings, Kingdoms et. al.

Quothe Michael Michael Martinez::
You cannot have Fingolfin claiming the kingship before Feanor betrays him.

If by Feanor's betrayal you are refering to his desertion of Fingolfin at Araman, then JRRT has already stated that Fingolfin asserted his claim before that point, and said that one of Feanor's reasons for deserting Fingolfin was because of that claim made by Fingolfin.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Tolkien's Elves, especially their princes, put a lot of power into their words.

If by this you are refering to the keeping of oaths you are correct. However this is not absolute. There are several cases of 'their princes', either not keeping their oaths in spirit or in word (one the other or both that is ). For example, Maedhros broke his covenant by bringing a greater force than he had promised to the parley with Morgoth; Turgon on the death of Aredhel had Eol slain, though it seems he had said, to Idril and Aredhel, that he would show mercy, before Aredhel died; Thingol kept his oath to Luthien by not slaying Beren outright, but he sent out Beren to his death (or so it was presumed). And then there is Fingolfin who though having just said his oath to Feanor, spoke against Feanor (to nearly the point of violence) in the assembly that followed Finwe's death (and it is implied that he may not have gone along at all, save at the askance of the Noldor who would not renounce him).

Quothe Michael Martinez:
Either you drop Fingolfin's vow to follow Feanor before Manwe or you assign him the claim of kingship at the first point in the history where his vow would be rendered null by Feanor's actions.

Quothe Aiwendil:
but the finished narrative must make it clear that Fingolfin has not broken his oath

JRRT already says that Fingolfin was claiming the kingship of the Noldor before Feanor deserted him (see above for quotes or see the Shibboleth). JRRT already gives the answer of how Fingolfin kept his 'vow to follow Feanor. It is noted in HoME 10, LQ1, ~73: &quot;'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 287, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Feanor before Manwe 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'&quot;
The author indicates here that Fingolfin was keeping his vow by simply and literally following Feanor. No mention is made of submitting to Feanor, and in fact the opposite is implied. Fingolfin, despite his vow, spoke out against Feanor following the death of Finwe. And of course note that Fingolfin would not desert his people (these being the Noldor of Tirion did not accede to the rule of Feanor and would not renounce the rule of Fingolfin. There is no reason to drop the vow, for JRRT has ingeniously shown how it is kept. There is no reason drop JRRT's having Fingolfin claim the kingship, since it is not contradictory, and further explains why JRRT does not say Feanor was King of all the Noldor but only claimed the title (and this can be considered in light of JRRT's statement that Feanor was deprived of the leadership of the Noldor after Finwe's death).. It also explains why Feanor referred to himself as 'heir' of the King, and not 'the King' despite already having claimed the kingship.

Quothe Aiwendil:
Obviously, the promise of Fingolfin to Feanor will still be included. What will be said of Fingolfin's claim to the high kingship, and where will it be said? I don't believe anything to this effect should be placed before the kinslaying; at most, I think slipping in the bit of dialogue from the Shibboleth after the kinslaying could work, but the finished narrative must make it clear that Fingolfin has not broken his oath, and that it is Feanor who committed the first wrong.

As I think I pointed out previously the events from the just after the death of Finwe to the Kinslaying seem to take place in a relatively short time. It does not seem likely that Fingolfin would have had a real oppertunity to pursue his claim until after the Kinslaying. Of course they may well have been thoughts of it or even words about it when the most part of the Noldor indicated they would not accept Feanor and would not renounce Fingolfin if Fingolfin came with them. Of course the first wrong was already done by Feanor, as is noted, and it was the actions of Feanor himself that deprived him of the rule of the Noldor upon his father's death.

Now there are some actual 'contradictions' in the Shibboleth, perhaps some of those should be discussed?

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>
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