[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Gondowe

I said in a previous post that I agreed with last Findegil's text in the history information. I thought (and I think) was better because Ulmo's message must be (in my opinion, in the "last" conception, no that of LT) in only one breath and then the cloak vanish. And for me narratively looks better. But, repeat, I agree with Findegil's text, it tells the same at the end.

Yes, but I think we had already rejected Findegil's most recent text and decided to first agree on an outline. The outline I proposed, which I still would advocate, is:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Concerning Ulmo's message - I think it should stand as it is. After all, Turgon is the last significant threat to Morgoth, and even if he, by himself, cannot stand alone against Angband, it could still mean that he (along with other potential allies) could gather all of his forces to a safer refuge (say, Balar) and then wait for the aid of the Valar - which would mean a substantial help would come to the Host of the West when they arrive to the Beleriand - and Turgon would indeed be haled as one of the greatest heroes of the War of Wrath - nonetheless, in the end, the Doom of Mandos was inevitable.

How do you feel about the outline suggested above? I think that this still captures what you describe here.

Originally Posted by Findegil

I have right now no time to try that out, but I would propose that we could serve the result of the discussion better, if we could avoid that abandon Gondolin is only the counsel if Turgon will not prepare for war.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds like you are saying you want to follow the idea that if Turgon prepared for war, that would also involve abandoning Gondolin. I would much rather not explicitly say that.