View Single Post
Old 02-14-2019, 09:18 AM   #11
denethorthefirst
Haunting Spirit
 
denethorthefirst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 81
denethorthefirst has just left Hobbiton.
How powerful was Gandalf? To answer that question we have to differentiate between Olorin the Maia and Gandalf (the Grey) in his incarnated human form. I personally dont think that Olorin (before his Incarnation) was as powerful as Sauron for example, but even if that were the case, he was (because of their different forms of incarnation) not as powerful as Sauron in Middle-earth. Gandalfs human body limited and restricted his innate power (and he also needed food, rest, sleep, he had a human organ system that could be damaged, he could even, for all intents and purposes, be killed and "die" etc.), whereas it seems that Sauron had created for himself a unique form that was much harder to destroy and that allowed him to better project his innate power.

Tolkien wrote about the Incarnation of the Istari in Letter 156:

Quote:
I wd. venture to say that he [Gandalf] was an incarnate 'angel'– strictly an γγελος: that is, with the other Istari, wizards, 'those who know', an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour. Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them. They thus appeared as 'old' sage figures. But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'. The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err.
--> "At this point in the fabulous history the purpose (of the incarnation of the Istari) was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of "power"."

Tolkien is quite clear here that the human bodies restricted ("limited") the innate power of the Istari. Of course they still had some magical potential, and they retained a lot of their knowledge, but they were not as powerful as they were when in their natural state, or if they had built for themselves unique forms that completely suited them.

Here are two other quotes from the Letters:

Quote:
In his [Saurons] actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it [the One Ring] from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. ... Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.
Quote:
...But he (Sauron) went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.*
*Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order
--> Sauron and Gandalf are, as Tolkien puts it in the first quote, of "the same order" because they are (or were in Saurons case) both Maiar (and Ainur). But that does not mean that they are equally powerful. The second quote, that Sauron was of a "far higher order" proves that not all Maiar (or Ainur for that matter) were equally powerful and that Sauron especially was one of the more powerful Maiar. Tolkien uses the same word ("order") in both quotes but it has different meanings: In the first quote he could mean either "order of the Maiar" or "order of the Ainur" (in the second quote Tolkien uses the phrase "of the same kind" to express this), whereas in the second quote "order" means "Level of Power".
For example: Aiwendil and Manwe are beings of the same Order (both are Ainur) but Manwe is a being of a far higher order (he is much more powerful).

Tolkien also wrote that Gandalf "might be expected" to master the One Ring, but if he actually could achieve it is debatable. Tolkien did not write that Gandalf could, or even might, master the Ring, but that he might be "expected" to master it - a remarkably vague and open-ended statement. Tolkien leaves the question open, but I think that, because of the vague nature of that statement, that Tolkien was merely stating a hypothetical possibility (resting on the fact that Sauron and Gandalf are both Ainur) and that Gandalf could not actually do it.

So how powerful was Gandalf? It appears that he was initially, in his natural state as Olorin (before the creation of Ea and in Valinor), less powerful than Sauron and that he was, because of the limiting nature of his human incarnation, also less powerful during his stay in Middle-Earth in the Third Age, even though Sauron himself had lost quite a bit of his innate Power during his quest for world domination. Gandalfs failure in his confrontation with Saruman seems to suggest that he was also weaker than Saruman, but the text is rather vague about that confrontation, so I am not entirely sure. Maybe Saruman surprised Gandalf? Maybe Gandalf was somewhat outwitted and/or outnumbered?

Be that as it may, all that is more or less clear and supported by the text. The more interesting question is how powerful Gandalf the White was? And in what way was he "enhanced"?
Was Gandalf the White still an incarnated Ainu and more or less, for all intents and purposes, human? Or did Eru return Gandalf to his natural state? That would mean that the form that Gandalf appeared in after his return was merely a "raiment" (as Tolkien puts it) that "Olorin" put on so he would be recognized, so other incarnates could relate to him. I favor this idea, that Gandalf the White was merely a "clothed" Maia, because it would explain the "enhancement" of Gandalf. He was "enhanced" only in relation to his former human incarnation and not because he received more Power from Eru.

Last edited by denethorthefirst; 02-16-2019 at 02:02 PM.
denethorthefirst is offline   Reply With Quote