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Old 05-18-2016, 12:17 PM   #64
Gothmog, LoB
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Unless we go with the assumption that Dior was indeed a full mortal because he was only conceived after Lúthien had made her very special choice which not only got her out of her immortal Elda/Maia-heritage but also restored Beren back to life - a very special trick indeed - then there is no reason that Dior could even inherit 'the Quendi destiny' from her.

Unless, of course, we would assume that the choices that were given to Lúthien (and later Eärendil, Elwing, and their sons) were not binding to their descendants. But we know that this is the case from the fate of the children of Elros Tar-Minyatur so there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Dior got any special treatment due to the status of him being the child of an Elda-Maia half-blood (who had already given up all that) and a mere Mortal.

However, we do not know Eru's plan for Dior and his wife, so he might have given Manwe/Mandos special instructions how to deal with Dior's spirit as soon it showed up at Mandos.

We have to keep in mind that Dior is the offspring of a very important union between Elves and Men, most likely the most important such union in the history of Arda. Their romance most certainly was a huge and crucial part of the entire plan of Eru how to allow Men to absorb part of the elven-nature into their own bloodline. That is important later on. And I see no reason to not believe that Lúthien becoming mortal and Tuor becoming immortal wasn't part of that, too. This is conceived as some sort of mirrored exchange.

Perhaps part of the Dior problem also arises from the fact that Beren wasn't supposed to a Man in the original conception of the story. In that version only Eärendil would have been a half-elf, acting as a representative of both Elves and Men in the West. Eärendil's son(s) were of no real significance in that version of the story, either.

We should also keep in mind that the Eru's plan never would have been to have the Fall of Gondolin or the Ruin of Doriath the way it occurred.

Symbolically, I think, there is a strong case to be made that Beren and Lúthien's eventual marriage marked the beginning of the end of Doriath. Thingol and Melian - just as Turgon later on - should have read the signs correctly and given up the worldly things they had grown so accustomed to.

Lúthien's apparent loss causes 'Thingol's winter' in Doriath, and despite the fact that he is restored to health and life by her touch later on things have changed dramatically. The wise move would have been to abandon Doriath eventually, and give in to the inevitable change of time (say, move to Mouth of Sirion, or to Balar, helping the Mariner to prepare for his great quest). In that sense I find it very important to actually stress the importance that poison entered into Doriath both with the (wish for the) Silmaril as well as with the later greed for the Nargothrond gold, and so on.

Dior as a mere Mortal actually claiming the kingship of Doriath after Thingol's death and Melian's departure (who, to a much lesser degree, would also have been caught up in the corruption of the world as well as the desire to let go of things - her husband and kingdom - which she was not yet willing to give up) could be a fine symbol for this decay.

He certainly is of the divine line of Melian the Maia and Elu Thingol but he is still a mortal Man. The idea that he could rule Doriath as its king unchallenged and in peace in those times is itself a very interesting paradox. I mean, we are talking about a court in which Túrin Turambar, the king's very own foster son, was mocked by one of the king's own trusted advisers because of his human heritage.

Dior would most likely have the support of the majority of the Sindar in Doriath, but most certainly not of all of them.

That said, Eru's original plan/wish for could actually have been to join Eärendil on his quest. Especially in combination with the fact that Turgon was actually supposed to abandon Gondolin once Tuor arrived there rather than continue his futile attempt to preserve his previous little isolationist paradise.

One wonders what would have happened had Turgon and the Gondolindrim actually heeded Ulmo's warning and abandoned the city? Would that have resulted in some union between Turgon/Tuor/Eärendil and Dior and his children? If you check the timeline it seems possible that they could have teamed up and averted both the Second and Third Kinslaying.

And then, perhaps, not only Eärendil and Elwing would have gone West in that boat, but Turgon, Idril, Dior, Nimloth, Elwing, Eärendil, and their children together? In such a scenario the Dior situation could have resolved in a better way.

But the real problem with the Peredhil thing is actually the ability/right of Elrond's children to choose. If their fate is somehow connected to Elrond's presence then why the hell is this only the case with Elrond's children? Shouldn't Elros' children not also have had the right to choose to 'abandon their father' and either live with their uncle Elrond in Lindon or with their grandparents Eärendil and Elwing in Aman?

Eru/the Valar certainly could have passed on the message that Arwen had the right to choose via Gandalf but that would then also have been a special grant from Eru himself, not something Arwen and her brothers could do simply by deciding to not stay with their father.
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