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Old 05-27-2016, 06:32 AM   #70
Gothmog, LoB
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Join Date: May 2016
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@Alcuin:

Yeah, Dior wouldn't be diminished in his divine bloodline, power, or abilities by not inheriting the fate of the Eldar from his parents. When Beren and Lúthien returned to Middle-earth they had become mortal but both of them - but especially Lúthien - were still immensely powerful and blessed thanks to the rewards they reaped for the deeds they did.

And I think the fact that Dior was the son of Beren and Lúthien as well as the grandson of Melian and Thingol was what enabled him to become the King of Doriath despite the fact that he would most likely not rule this kingdom for long.

If we go with the sacrifice theme as the reason why Eärendil and Elwing were rewarded with the choice (and strangely also their sons who didn't do anything to deserve such a privilege) then Dior might actually have been unlucky because he was slain before he could make such sacrifices himself.

As I've said above, the timeline would certainly have allowed Dior to team up with and accompany Eärendil to Valinor had there been no Second and Third Kinslaying. And if Turgon had left Gondolin before the Ruin of Doriath he and Tuor/Idril might have been able to prevent both the Second and Third Kinslaying. I mean, whatever pitiful forces Feanor's sons still had when they attacked Doriath and later the Mouths of Siron wouldn't have been a match for the Gondolindrim had they come to live with Dior at Doriath and/or convinced him to move down south with them to built the ship for the grand journey.

Dior could easily have been the one wearing the Simaril his parents took from Morgoth, whereas Eärendil would have just been the guy who built and steered Vingilot. But that didn't come to pass.

And if it is true that Tuor was in the end counted among the Eldar then Dior also could have been able to be granted the same fate, or at least a choice about what he wanted.

The problem with Arwen's choice can be sort of rectified with Gandalf acting as Manwe/Eru's messenger, but if that's the case then Tolkien really dropped the ball in properly establishing/setting up any of that. I mean, there would have been space in Appendix A to recount how Gandalf (or even Saruman) informed Elrond and his daughter about the special destiny that awaited Arwen in the future.

But there are also hints that all of Elrond's children are sort of considered to be chattel of their father, bound to him fate-wise in a very direct sense. After all, it is said that by not going with Elrond they effectively chose mortality. And if that works for Elrond's children then it should also work for Elros' children - meaning that had his children decided to leave their father and return either to the Eldar in Middle-earth or go to Aman that they would have been counted among the Eldar.

And that is a very strange idea.

And as far as I recall it is completely unclear whether Elladan and Elrohir truly chose the fate of mortal men by staying behind or whether they (and Arwen, as her last conversation with Aragorn suggested) could change their mind until the very end simply by repenting and taking a ship into the True West.

There is also a continuity error there in regards to the time when Círdan left. Celeborn and Elrond's sons are still there at that time, and Legolas later builds his own ship but Arwen claims that when Aragorn died no ship was left which could take her west, indicating that the Mithlond was already deserted.
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