View Single Post
Old 05-25-2016, 09:21 PM   #16
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,312
Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB View Post
Well, if you put it like that you really make the man look like a clown in comparison to her. But we should keep in mind that he was at least as old as she was, and presumably resided with her in Doriath (or was there even before she came across the sea).

Now, I don't know what version of Celeborn's origin you prefer, but in any version that is not the original Nando version - which is the one actually used in the text of LotR when Galadriel remarks that she came to Celeborn - he certainly has the chance to be a wise guy in his own right.
There is no indication in any version of the story that has Celeborn as ancient as Galadriel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB View Post
He wouldn't have as much Noldo knowledge from the Valar, but he also had the chance to learn stuff from Thingol and Melian.
Let's stick with facts. There is no indication anywhere that Celeborn had anything to do with Melian. In fact, the text explicitly refers to Galadriel learning directly from Melian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB View Post
That is one way to see it. I'd say it is improper for a woman in Tolkien's world/mindset to lead an army, regardless how much power she actually wielded. She simply couldn't do that, and that puts the actual visible/political power back in Celeborn's hands.
Tolkien refers to Galadriel as second only to Feanor in power among the Noldor, not just magic/goetia, but physical strength and agility. In fact, at the time of the War of the Ring, Tolkien refers to her as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth". If you want to conjecture, if Sauron came to Lothlorien, who would contest against him, Celeborn or Galadriel? The answer is quite simple. Celebrimbor handed her a Ring of Power for a reason, and conversely, he didn't hand it to Celeborn for the same reason.

Also, it is well known she herself fought against Fëanor in defense of her mother's kin in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB View Post
Hm. That alliance between the Greenwood elves and Lórien was made by Celeborn and Thranduil. Galadriel isn't mentioned. Whether the White Council was some sort of political body is questionable, too. We don't really know what that was besides a debating society for the Wise who claimed to keep a watchful eye on Sauron and his servants (they seemed to have done a very awful job at that considering that it took centuries before one of them decided to investigate Dol Guldur personally, not to mention that none of them actually ever attacked the place or urged Gondor to do so).
A debating society? That's what you got out of reading the story?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB View Post
I'm also not sure whether Galadriel actually convened the meetings. We know she instigated the formation of the council but that doesn't mean she was in charge. Saruman was, after he had been elected, and the fact that he was also indicates that Galadriel's influence wasn't that great. We also know that the meeting in TA 2851 was in Imladris, so one could assume that Elrond also had the authority to convene a meeting (or at least invite the other guys to join him). The meeting before the attack on Dol Guldur was most likely in Lórien considering that this would have been closest it, but we don't know that for a certainty. It could also have been at Isengard.
But the text states the White Council was formed at her insistence (again, stick with the text, not making stuff up). Saruman, a Maia, was elected to lead the Council, whereas Galadriel, in her wisdom, wanted Gandalf (another Maia) to lead the Council. It was because Saruman was elected that the Council failed for such a long time, and he was deliberately sabotaging their efforts. That a Maia was elected to lead the Council, whether Saruman or Gandalf, is the only logical choice since Manwe himself sent them on their mission. Again, reading the text is necessary here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB View Post
That's actually a very interesting quote. Especially the last part. It illustrates how Tolkien imagined Galadriel as Dark Lord would have ruled. As a femme fatale, a woman who would have subdued and dominated anyone in Middle-earth by the power of her beauty, basically. There is no mentioning of the strength of her armies, the power of her mind, or the sharpness of her sword. Just compare that to the Song about Gil-galad or ask yourself how Gandalf would have been described as Dark Lord. Nobody would have said that 'all shall love him and despair'.
Again, you need to read the text. "No mentions of the power of her mind?" Now I think you are showing yourself to be merely a chauvinist and ignoring the story altogether. There are countless mentions of her wisdom in both LotR and The Silmarillion. As far as her sword, I believe she preferred a javelin. But do you really think she even needed a weapon? Seriously? She throws down the walls of Dol-Guldur (not Celeborn and his army, but her, specifically).

She left Valinor to rule, the text states it specifically. In the Silmarillion the wording is such that you can't mistake who wears the pants:

...whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lorien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel. A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.

So, reading that you get GALADRIEL, oh, yeah, and she married that Celeborn guy.

I think you have a skewed view of Galadriel that is not consistent with the books. She was much different from Melian, and more like Luthien, who was also a co-ruler with Beren.
__________________
Please visit my newly resurrected blog...The Dark Elf File...a slightly skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote