[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Balfrog

Huinesoron


“This is the key point, I think: While thirty pieces of silver are certainly suggestive, by themselves they are only a single point.”

Please see my response to Morthoron – above.

If Tolkien had written 'thirty pounds', you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible. If he'd written about thirty silver spoons, you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible. If he'd written about nineteen silver pennies, you wouldn't see a connection to the Bible. The three words aren't distinct points which all have an innate Biblical connection - they are a single point which doesn't work at all if broken up.

Weren't the number of tangencies sufficient? Do you want me to add other points of tangency? Such as we are told the full worth of the initial monetary loss, in the end, was put to good use – just like in the biblical tale?

You're going to have to explain that if you want it to be believed, because so far as I can see, 12 pennies go to Bill Ferny (not noted as being a good cause), while the rest go to Merry and vanish from the story. Neither payment has an 'in the end' - just the initial outlay. Even if you accept both of those as 'good use', you are still conflating the payment to Judas and the purchase of the field into a single event.

“The 'thirty silver pennies' has been debated extensively.”

I would love to see some of these articles – for my own edification. Can you point to them for me please?

Apologies - I meant 'debated extensively in this thread'.

Loved your article on Gollum. It is absolutely true that one can associate anything to anything in a long and detailed story. But Gollum wasn't explicitly pointed out as having an association to King Solomon by Tolkien. If he had been – then some analysis would definitely be warranted.

The point is that Tolkien emphasized the Catholic and religous nature of the work and that had been subsumed into the story. It's up to us to try and understand how he did it and at what points this happened.

And where did Tolkien explicitlt point out a connection between Butterbur and Judas? Or do you not think that King Solomon of Israel is a Catholic and religious figure?

Ms. Seth has rightly pointed out, for the chapters involving Bombadil, where Tolkien's underlying religious allusions lie. Most strongly with the '30 silver pennies' and less obviously elsewhere. As for those lesser ones, either they are allusions or they or not or they could be. Ms. Seth's point is that are enough of them to build a case. I would take another careful read if I were you and try to digest the thrust of her essay more rationally.

I have read it. I went through and looked at every single purported allusion, and discussed each one individually. The argument you're making here is 'there's no smoke without fire!', and it applies exactly as well to King Gollumon as to the Gospel of Tom (ie, it doesn't).

In any case back to the issue at hand – if Morthoron can't or won't answer me, perhaps you can. In repetition then:

Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story?

Just give me an answer: Yes or No?

Yes.

If he wasn't – then by Godsteeth tell me why and provide some evidence?

If he was - then tell me why he put thirty silver coins into the story and why he decided to leave it in – even after the edit process?

I'm glad you asked! Because I think I've figured out the answer, and I'd be delighted to share it.

The original values were six and twenty, but that would leave Butterbur dramatically overpaying Merry - although the specifics that Ferny did indeed charge thrice the value is left out, it's still mentioned in the preceding paragraph. That means a pony would be worth 2 pennies, and Butterbur ended up paying Merry for TEN! There's even a note of 'less the cost of their food and lodgings', so he overpaid even more.

When Tolkien came by and decided to specify that Ferny had indeed charged triple, he needed new numbers. Two pennies is ridiculously low for a pony, so he doubled it. That means Ferny would charge 12 pennies, and Butterbur would pay Merry (5×4=) 20 - less two for food and lodgings, that comes to 18.

When he saw that basic maths led to a value of '30 pieces of silver' - or perhaps even 32, from which he subtracted two to make the reference stick - I'm sure Tolkien had a quiet chuckle to himself, and kept it in thereafter. But, taking the original draft into account, it seems highly likely that the reference first appeared by chance, falling out of a basic mathematical function.

hS