[Guinevere]

I am lagging grievously behind in following these threads.

Fascinating ideas and discussion about Galadriel and Celeborn!
I personally feel it was rather nice of Galadriel to tell the fellowship that Celeborn was the wisest Elf in ME,( even if not quite true )

originally posted by Hilde Bracegirdle:

the founding of the White Council And why Gandalf was not the head of it!)

In the Silm (Of the Rings of Power) it says:

Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons. But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history.

I'm sure that Celeborn was also present, but not mentioned by name. Tolkien only wrote: "Therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar." The three elves named were also holders of the Elven-rings.


Very good post, Estelyn, on Frodo's lament for Gandalf! I am glad you took this up, I always liked that poem very much as well. It kind of sums up everything that Gandalf is.


Now to something that impressed me in this chapter, (and many other chapters) : the underlying strain of sadness and melancholy in the LotR .

"...and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

says Galadriel.
It reminds me of Elrond's words at the council:

I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats and many fruitless victories.

Evil can only be diminished at great cost, but never wholly overcome. It always crops up again., as after the War of Wrath:

When Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.

Nevertheless, the Elves keep on fighting bravely, though they know they can never win. Or, in the 3rd age, at least they keep resisting evil.

These quotes reflect Tolkien's own, rather pessimistic world-view, as he expressed it in letter # 195:

Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect "history" to be anything but a "long defeat" - though it contains (and in legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.

Galadriel knows that the time of the Elves in ME is over, once the Elven-Rings lose their power. All the same, she resists the temptation and is willing to give up her beloved country and leave for the West. She does what is right, no matter the consequences. I find her words to Frodo always very touching:

"If you succed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
Frodo bent his head. "And what do you wish? " he said at last.
"That what should be shall be. " she answered. "The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now.

This shows us what a big sacrifice it is for the Elves.