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Annunfuiniel · 07-09-2009, 01:37 PM

I think much of the magic in M-E has to do with origins and "true names", to some extend or another. Some even speak of it out loud (Treebeard, thinking it very foolish and dangerous when Merry and Pippin give him their own, real names), while at other times it's plain without words (Bilbo, trying to avoid giving his name or any other information about himself to Smaug). Elves especially seem to know the origins or names of things in Middle-Earth and can therefore (I assume) communicate even with trees and such, though they usually don't wish to command or alter them, ie. use their magical powers (one exception might be the magical guard which Elrond had put on Rivendell; he could command the river waters to rise when need be). Their power comes from their language: they were the first to name all things in M-E.

This is also a valid point while considering the magic that involves crafting of various objects, such as the dwarven doors or elvish blades. This is an old, even ancient theme in mythologies. If you knew the origin of things, you could also control those things. This comes close to the aforementioned words of Command: it was possible - or so it was thought - to command things to happen, if you only knew the right words, that is the way things ought to happen or come to being. So maybe the forgers of "magical" objects just blended their knowledge of "origins" into one object? If they knew how to command iron and fire... voilà, a blade with fiery substance (Narsil/Anduril?

perhaps not...).

Davem's definition/description of magic is interesting in this view also. Spell-casting (the telling of a new story which tries to alter the status quo) involves, in my opinion, the knowledge of how things were, are and should/could be. Only then it's possible for the spell-caster to change the story to his liking. The word of Command is not much different in it's definition: if you know the origin you can either softly persuade (by casting a spell) or command (casting the C-word). Even "friendly" objects can be commanded, if so structured (for example the gates/doors of Moria; it's interesting, btw., that it was the elves who needed to command the doors; the dwarves could push them open from the inside without any further ado).

So, that's my 2 cents on the matter, at least for now (and even that took ages, I might add

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07-09-2009, 01:37 PM	#9
Annunfuiniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Something close like Shire Posts: 773	I think much of the magic in M-E has to do with origins and "true names", to some extend or another. Some even speak of it out loud (Treebeard, thinking it very foolish and dangerous when Merry and Pippin give him their own, real names), while at other times it's plain without words (Bilbo, trying to avoid giving his name or any other information about himself to Smaug). Elves especially seem to know the origins or names of things in Middle-Earth and can therefore (I assume) communicate even with trees and such, though they usually don't wish to command or alter them, ie. use their magical powers (one exception might be the magical guard which Elrond had put on Rivendell; he could command the river waters to rise when need be). Their power comes from their language: they were the first to name all things in M-E. This is also a valid point while considering the magic that involves crafting of various objects, such as the dwarven doors or elvish blades. This is an old, even ancient theme in mythologies. If you knew the origin of things, you could also control those things. This comes close to the aforementioned words of Command: it was possible - or so it was thought - to command things to happen, if you only knew the right words, that is the way things ought to happen or come to being. So maybe the forgers of "magical" objects just blended their knowledge of "origins" into one object? If they knew how to command iron and fire... voilà, a blade with fiery substance (Narsil/Anduril? perhaps not...). Davem's definition/description of magic is interesting in this view also. Spell-casting (the telling of a new story which tries to alter the status quo) involves, in my opinion, the knowledge of how things were, are and should/could be. Only then it's possible for the spell-caster to change the story to his liking. The word of Command is not much different in it's definition: if you know the origin you can either softly persuade (by casting a spell) or command (casting the C-word). Even "friendly" objects can be commanded, if so structured (for example the gates/doors of Moria; it's interesting, btw., that it was the elves who needed to command the doors; the dwarves could push them open from the inside without any further ado). So, that's my 2 cents on the matter, at least for now (and even that took ages, I might add ) __________________ Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.