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Old 10-01-2005, 06:45 AM   #11
King's Writer
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Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I don't mind how slow the project goes on, as long as it still has a chance to go on at all!

NA-EX-19: Aiwendil worte:
I don't understand the deletion of "and Angband was emptied" in your version.
As I understand the course of the battle in the Narn version Morgoth sent one army against Fingon and one against Maedhros, both nearly at the same time. A third army he held back in Angband and sent it out when Fingon had approached his gate. In GA the western Army against Fingon was the first, then when Fingon was in front of Angband the second Army drove him back and when Maedhros finally approached the third army with Glaurung "emptied Angband". Thus in the Narn version it could not been said that Angband was emptied because Morgoth had still the forces in reserve that he used to drive Fingon from the gates back into the plain.

NA-EX-21, -22: The not fired bacon is really a riddle, but the course of the battle is clearly changed in the Narn version. From what we get in the Narn it seems clear to me that Maedhros was not late with his attack. There were no wishpers of treason in the western army. Thus if Uldor's machinations were still present they were not effective in the way they had been in Sil77. On the basis of this I can't see how we could work them in, without creating an entirely new thread in the story. A reason why the beacon never was fired could be that Maedhros was cut of from Dorthonion by the Easterlings of Uldor before he could sent the order to fire it. And afterwards he would not fire it in the hope that Fingon would be save from the disaster of that day when he stayed in Hithlum, not knowing that Fingon was already involved in fights of his own. On the other hand it would not be any great wonder if a bacon fired when Fingon was already fare out on Anfauglith would not be marked by many and not found any mention in the battle description.

Aiwendil wrote:
Even if one were to suppose that these exact timings are not reliable, and that night had fallen by the time Hurin fought with the troll-guard, there is still the problem that the troll-guard must have taken an appreciable time to cross the Anfauglith, and thus must have been travelling in daylight. Indeed, if they were with Gothmog, then earlier that day they were fighting Fingon farther north.
Yes, I suppose that the exact timings are not reliable to the least. And locking at the geography it is clear that night fell earlier in the gorge of Sirion father east than at the coast were it could be said that "the sun went down beyond the sea" equally if we are dealing with a round earth turning around it self or a flat earth with the sun running around in circles.
In the fight of Gothmog and Fingon there is no mention of the troll-guard, thus they were possibly not there. They might have been in the fighting the night before when Fingon was surrounded and hid themselves during the day in some dark place near at hand (Taur-nu-Fuin?), approaching the fight again when the sun went down behind Ered Wethrin.
In the The Hobbit the trolls changed into stone exactly when the sun peeped over the rim of the mountains, thus the trolls could stand the dawn, and I suppose the dusk as well.

Aiwendil wrote:
It is only for this reason that I wish we had more tangible proof that the troll-guard are in the Narn text. Ultimately, though, I agree that it is probably best to include them, despite the problems this creates.
Agreed, full heartedly!

NA-TI-01b, NA-EX-12 & NA-TI-06: So these points are done.

NA-TI-07: So what is about using the words of Algund in the place were Túrin takes up the helm. Thus we would get some more material for the rather week Dor-Cúrathol part:
NA-EX-34 <Ap Narn Beleg, appraoching Amon Rûdh, {came}had come upon their tracks, and{ either} trailed them to {a}the camp{ which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to Bar-en-Danwedh and slipped in after them}.>NA-TI-15 <Sil77 Thus Beleg returned once more to Túrin, and their meeting was glad; and with him he brought out of Dimbar the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin, thinking that it might lift Túrin's thought again above his life in the wilderness as the leader of a petty company.> NA-TI-15.5 <NA; Note 10 Then Algund, the old outlaw who had fled down Sirion from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, said{ that Túrin's}/: "Your/ eyes {had}/have/ long reminded {him}/me/ of another whom {he}/I/ could not recall, and{ that} now {he}/I/ knew {him}/you/ for the son of Húrin. {"'}But he was a smaller man, small for his kin, though filled with fire; and his hair gold-red. You are dark, and tall. I see your mother in you, now that I look closer; she was of Bëor's people. What fate was hers, I wonder.{' '}/" "/I do not know,{'}/"/ said Túrin. {'}/"/No word comes out of the North.{'}">
<Sil77 But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. ...>
NA-TI-07.5: The question seems to be how broad the vale of Sirion was in that area, and how exactly we should press the words "went away southwards". I can not see any contradiction between "went away southwards from the wood south of Taeglin" and staying in the vale of Sirion. Locking at the north-west section of the map in HoME 11 the camp of the Woodman is marked (labelled "Turin among the Outlaws) very near to the confluence of Taeglin and Sirion. (It is interesting that Túrin was driven by the orcs beyond the road that went down from the crossing of Taeglin, and came back in only three days.) But it seems also clear that Túrin and his band did not go exactly south from that place, since otherwise they would run into Doriath beyond Sirion. It is also later attested that they did not move fare from the River Taeglin or the borders of Doriath. Thus I think "southwards" means they followed the vale of the river Sirion to the south along the borders of Doriath. The vale of Sirion is later attested to be as broad as the woods shown on the map ("... the next day he led his men away, further than they had yet come from the {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the marches of Doriath. After three days' journeying they halted at the western edge of the woods of Sirion's Vale. There the land was drier and more bare, as it began to climb up into the moorlands.") Thus their is space enough for a journey southwards from the former haunts of the Outlaws but still remaining in the vale of Sirion.
Could it be that you, Aiwendil, placed the Woodman nearer to the crossing of Taeglin, as I did at first myself? Then a southward movement would clearly lead out of the vale of Sirion.
But the map does provide us with a place for the Woodman and the Outlaws that fits all statments in the text, I created, with the sole exception of Túrin twice crossing the road south of the crossing of Taeglin in a journey of only three days. But for that problem it is possible to disagree with Christopher Tolkiens statment "that that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen". It seems probable that they were much father to the west at that time.

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