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Old 10-31-2017, 07:08 PM   #17
Aiwendil
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Originally Posted by ArcusCalion View Post
VT-EX-01b: is the addition of "ancient" really necessary? when this was written the round world numenoran cataclysm had already entered the mythos, so the ancient word was implied already.
This is an addition from the AAm* typescript.

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VT-LQ-01.5: I actually realize now that this contradicts the addition of the "vast regions of Ea" into the Cosmological structure with Ainulindale D and later AAm. Should this be changed from "Void and Eldest Darkness" to "Vast Spaces of Ea"?
Hmm, this is an interesting question. What gives me pause is that Ainulindale D probably precedes LQ. So if the new cosmology had already arisen, then perhaps we should construe "Void and Eldest Darkness" as not actually conflicting with the new cosmology? I need to think about this a bit.

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VT-EX-03.1: In this version, the "Mountains of Valinor" and just "Valinor" occur before the introduction of the name Valinor as the land of the Valar. Is this a problem?
Good point. I don't see an obvious, easy way to fix this, though I can give it some more thought.

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VT-LT-03.5: This is awkward. Maybe instead of changing "their" to "its" at every occurrence, just change the first "Their roofs" to "The roofs of its buildings were .." and leave the "their"s afterwards. Makes it smoother.
I like this suggestion.

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VT-EX-30.1: Arie is said to be a Maia of Vana, so this wording cannot stay this way. Maybe

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.... to her bidding, and caused one of {her}[the maidens of Vána], even {Urwen}[Arie] ....
Right, I was confused on this point when I made the draft, but I now see that Arie(n) became a Maia of Varda only with the new story of the Sun in MT II. Without that story, I agree that she should remain a Maia of Vana, so I think your suggestion is good.

This also brings up the small point of her name. In my view, the 'Arie' of MT II (the name derived from earlier 'Azie', itself from the primeval name 'As' or 'Asa' of the Sun) is almost a different character replacing Arien, maiden of Vana. I am half convinced that in rejecting the new story of the Sun, we should also reject 'Arie' in favour of 'Arien'. A small point, though.

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VT-LQ-04b: Nowhere in this passage does it say that the wells are near Ezellohar. If there is no actual source saying that they are, then I would recommend that the descriptions of the resting places of the cauldrons be retained in the later part of the chapter.
Good point. The wells are in fact said to be near the Green Mound in AAm, §28, but I missed that statement since I took this passage from LQ. We must stick with the story that they were near Ezellohar, though how to introduce this fact into the text is not so obvious. The wells are now mentioned before Ezellohar is, so we can't really insert the statement the first time we mention the wells. I suppose what we could do is, the first time we mention the Green Mound, add a statement that it is near the wells, something like:

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VT-EX-04.4 And before its western gate, <Editorial addition based on AAm near Cululin and Silindirin,> there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.
Your comment also made me realize that I missed taking up the emendations to AAm here whereby the name 'Ezellohar' was introduced. It should be, then:

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VT-EX-04.4 And before its western gate, <Editorial addition based on AAm near Cululin and Silindirin,> there was a green mound, <AAm emendation Ezellohar,> and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.

VT-EX-04.5 Then Yavanna and Nienna came to {that Green Mound}[Ezellohar]; and Yavanna hallowed it, . . .

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VT-LT-05: Nothing wrong with this, but in the paragraph after this addition, it says the Noldor call Varda Elbereth, but as this name is Sindarin, should tis be changed to Sindar?
I'm not completely sure - this is from the Ainulindale D, which I believe post-dates the change of Noldorin to Sindarin (which arose in the writing of the appendices to LotR). And it is true that in Middle-earth (at least in the 3rd age) the Noldor - like Gildor - do call her that (since they mainly speak Sindarin). On the other hand, Christopher Tolkien saw fit to change 'whom the Noldor name' to 'who in the Sindarin tongue is named'. So perhaps we should follow his lead there.

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VT-LT-06: At the end of the paragraph, per my comment on the LQ-04b, I would add back in the description of the resting place of Silindirin.
As noted, I think they do need to be near Ezellohar because of AAm.

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VT-LT-08b: Why remove so much of the sentence? Only the part about Makar seems unfit, the rest is pretty important.
I think you're right. We can make this:

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VT-LT-08c Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked {as is Makar}, albeit there are none of Valar or Úvanimor (who are monsters, giants, and ogres) that do not fear the sinews of his arm and the buffet of his iron-clad fist, when he has cause for wrath.
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VT-LT-11.5: I would add back the description of the resting place of Culullin, see above.
As noted, it needs to be near Ezellohar.

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VT-LT-12: why remove Vę? Even if it is not his own name, there is no real reason to remove it.
I think that 'Mandos' clearly replaced 'Ve' as the name of the hall - note that in LT, Mandos is the region, while Ve is specifically the hall. Add to this that Ve is a very old name with no plausible etymology, never mentioned after the Lost Tales, and I think we are best dropping it.

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VT-LT-13: This last paragraph cause me and Fin a bunch of trouble, and I like the direction you took much better. However, many of my old objections still apply. Much of the Lost Tales descriptions of Nienna are entirely at odds with her later persona, and thus we need to remove or greatly edit much of this paragraph.
Yes, I hadn't given this much thought, but I think you are completely right about Nienna. I think we should remove the whole paragraph.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-31-2017 at 07:33 PM.
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