The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Why was Sauron so powerful during his war against the Celebrimbor and the elves?

Gardener of Gamwich · 11-11-2020, 10:17 AM

Thank you William That's very helpful. Your response is addressed, at least partially, below.

First thing, and most importantly, to go back to the original question: Why was Sauron so powerful during his war against the Celebrimbor and the elves? I originally suggested that Sauron's possession of the One Ring should be considered as a possible factor. The discussion that has followed suggests it was not a factor and I can see why. Mithadan pointed out that without the Elves wearing the Three, the One Ring would have had less power in the Second Age than in the Third Age when the Three were being worn/had been used during Sauron's absence to protect and enhance Imladris, Lorien and Lindon.

I suppose we can take Mithadan's argument even further. In "On The Rings Of Power And The Third Age" in the Silmarilion we see that after Eregion was laid waste, "...Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of the Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind." So when Sauron's forces invade Eregion, the Seven and the Nine are still sitting in Celebrimbor's fortress and the Three are secreted away in various Elven kingdoms.

William points out the Professor Tolkien stated that one of the One Ring's powers was that of "Command". So regardless of how much power the One Ring may have given Sauron by combining the powers of the undistributed/unworn Rings of Power (and let's for the moment follow Mithadan's argument that this would have been considerably less power than when they were being worn/had successfully corrupted their bearers) then what the One Ring would have allowed Sauron to do during the invasion of Eregion is command his already overwhelming forces to even greater fury on the attack.

I think that helps answer my original discussion point. I suppose the One Ring might have helped Sauron further embolden his troops, but that there is little doubt he would have succeeded in laying waste to Eregion without it. The answer to the original question just seems to be, in William's words, "brute force".

A couple of further thoughts resulting from William's post:

Considering William's response regarding what the One Ring's power of "Command" would have allowed Aragorn to do had he claimed and mastered it. As well as potentially suborning the Orcs, could he not have suborned the Nazgul as well? In "The Hunt For the Ring" in Unfinished Tales when the Nazgul arrive at Isengard, Saruman says to the Lord of the Nazgul: "I know what you seek though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it then you would bow down before me and call me Lord."

And then William's reference to "what happened at the Black Gate when the Ring was destroyed". I think what William is referring to is the fact that when the One Ring is destroyed, the orcs of Sauron's army fighting at the Black Gate are suddenly left bereft of direction and will to fight and run away in confusion or even slay themselves. "The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid."

But the effect of the destruction of the One Ring is described still further:

In the next paragraph:"Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness."

And in the next chapter. "And the shadow departed, and the Sun was unveiled, and light leaped forth; and the waters of the Anduin shone like silver, and in all the houses of the City men sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell."

And in the unpublished Epilogue (and forgive the length of the quote but I love every word – please indulge me):
"March the twenty-fifth!" [Sam] said. "This day seventeen years ago, Rose wife, I didn't think I should ever see thee again. But I kept on hoping."
"I never hoped at all, Sam," [Rose] said, "not until that very day; and then suddenly I did. About noon it was, and I felt so glad that I began singing. And mother said: "Quiet, lass! There's ruffians about." And I said: "Let them come! Their time will soon be over. Sam's coming back." And you came."
"I did." said Sam. "To the most belovedest place in all the world. To my Rose and my garden."

It was when I read that Epilogue quote for the first time a couple of years ago and thought about it that I made a connection between Rose suddenly feeling so glad that she began singing and the people of Gondor singing "...for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell."

Seems to me it shows the power/influence of the One Ring/Shadow, extending from Mordor across Gondor and Rohan all the way to the Shire (and maybe on across Lindon); and I suppose, north across Rhovanion, south across Far Harad and east to the Sea of Rhûn and beyond.

I wonder if Nob, Bob and Barliman (despite the situation in Bree) and Tom and Goldberry all started singing too? (Not that Tom needed much encouragement.)

11-11-2020, 10:17 AM	#12
Gardener of Gamwich Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: England Posts: 7	Thank you William That's very helpful. Your response is addressed, at least partially, below. First thing, and most importantly, to go back to the original question: Why was Sauron so powerful during his war against the Celebrimbor and the elves? I originally suggested that Sauron's possession of the One Ring should be considered as a possible factor. The discussion that has followed suggests it was not a factor and I can see why. Mithadan pointed out that without the Elves wearing the Three, the One Ring would have had less power in the Second Age than in the Third Age when the Three were being worn/had been used during Sauron's absence to protect and enhance Imladris, Lorien and Lindon. I suppose we can take Mithadan's argument even further. In "On The Rings Of Power And The Third Age" in the Silmarilion we see that after Eregion was laid waste, "...Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of the Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind." So when Sauron's forces invade Eregion, the Seven and the Nine are still sitting in Celebrimbor's fortress and the Three are secreted away in various Elven kingdoms. William points out the Professor Tolkien stated that one of the One Ring's powers was that of "Command". So regardless of how much power the One Ring may have given Sauron by combining the powers of the undistributed/unworn Rings of Power (and let's for the moment follow Mithadan's argument that this would have been considerably less power than when they were being worn/had successfully corrupted their bearers) then what the One Ring would have allowed Sauron to do during the invasion of Eregion is command his already overwhelming forces to even greater fury on the attack. I think that helps answer my original discussion point. I suppose the One Ring might have helped Sauron further embolden his troops, but that there is little doubt he would have succeeded in laying waste to Eregion without it. The answer to the original question just seems to be, in William's words, "brute force". A couple of further thoughts resulting from William's post: Considering William's response regarding what the One Ring's power of "Command" would have allowed Aragorn to do had he claimed and mastered it. As well as potentially suborning the Orcs, could he not have suborned the Nazgul as well? In "The Hunt For the Ring" in Unfinished Tales when the Nazgul arrive at Isengard, Saruman says to the Lord of the Nazgul: "I know what you seek though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it then you would bow down before me and call me Lord." And then William's reference to "what happened at the Black Gate when the Ring was destroyed". I think what William is referring to is the fact that when the One Ring is destroyed, the orcs of Sauron's army fighting at the Black Gate are suddenly left bereft of direction and will to fight and run away in confusion or even slay themselves. "The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid." But the effect of the destruction of the One Ring is described still further: In the next paragraph:"Then all the Captains of the West cried aloud, for their hearts were filled with a new hope in the midst of darkness." And in the next chapter. "And the shadow departed, and the Sun was unveiled, and light leaped forth; and the waters of the Anduin shone like silver, and in all the houses of the City men sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell." And in the unpublished Epilogue (and forgive the length of the quote but I love every word – please indulge me): "March the twenty-fifth!" [Sam] said. "This day seventeen years ago, Rose wife, I didn't think I should ever see thee again. But I kept on hoping." "I never hoped at all, Sam," [Rose] said, "not until that very day; and then suddenly I did. About noon it was, and I felt so glad that I began singing. And mother said: "Quiet, lass! There's ruffians about." And I said: "Let them come! Their time will soon be over. Sam's coming back." And you came." "I did." said Sam. "To the most belovedest place in all the world. To my Rose and my garden." It was when I read that Epilogue quote for the first time a couple of years ago and thought about it that I made a connection between Rose suddenly feeling so glad that she began singing and the people of Gondor singing "...for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell." Seems to me it shows the power/influence of the One Ring/Shadow, extending from Mordor across Gondor and Rohan all the way to the Shire (and maybe on across Lindon); and I suppose, north across Rhovanion, south across Far Harad and east to the Sea of Rhûn and beyond. I wonder if Nob, Bob and Barliman (despite the situation in Bree) and Tom and Goldberry all started singing too? (Not that Tom needed much encouragement.)