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Child of the 7th Age · 08-22-2002, 08:50 AM

Is it really as clear cut as this? Your question implies that Orcs were simply corrupt Elves, but I'm not certain this is so. There are writings which seem to indicate all this is still up in the air. The LotR and the Silm imply an Elvish origin for Orcs. However, Myths Transformed (which was written later than LotR) and Book of Lost Tales2 (which was an early writing) suggest other possibilities: orcs "created" by Melkor in imitation of the Children of Illuvatar, orcs as corrupted men, orcs as corrupted lesser Maia (this one is in BoLT2, I know), and some kind of interbreeding even with beasts. Many feel that, in the last years of Tolkien's life, he was moving away from the idea of Orcs as corrupted Elves.

All of these theories seem to have problems. For example, Orcs are around a long time before Men. The Orcs seem so "dumb" so how could they be Maiar? And what about Tolkien's other statement that Sauron and Morgoth couldn't really "make" or create any new forms from scratch (only Eru could do that).

But I also don't think we can automatically assume an Elvish origin, and hence immortality. What if some of the Orcs were actually descended from beasts or men? You might have life stretched out (like the Ringwraiths), but how could mannish Orcs be immortal?

And what if Orcs were corrupt Elves? What happens when they were slain, which they certainly could be. Did the Orc fea travel to the House of Mandos? Tolkien does say somewhere that there is at least the slim possibility of Orcs being redeemable. Actually, he says they are "not unredeemable." So what happens if a slain Orc sees the error of its ways. Would the hroa just remember and recopy the Orc body as normally happens for an Elf? Ugh, what a disaster, to be a repentent corrupted Elf trapped within an Orc body.

Oh, yes, there is at least one reference in the hobbit to "goblin" (i.e. Orc) children. I think it says somewhere that Gollum had just eaten a Goblin child before Bilbo came into his lair. So if there is a child, must there be a female Orc too?

Can anyone shed light on these things who knows more than I do?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

08-22-2002, 08:50 AM	#4
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Is it really as clear cut as this? Your question implies that Orcs were simply corrupt Elves, but I'm not certain this is so. There are writings which seem to indicate all this is still up in the air. The LotR and the Silm imply an Elvish origin for Orcs. However, Myths Transformed (which was written later than LotR) and Book of Lost Tales2 (which was an early writing) suggest other possibilities: orcs "created" by Melkor in imitation of the Children of Illuvatar, orcs as corrupted men, orcs as corrupted lesser Maia (this one is in BoLT2, I know), and some kind of interbreeding even with beasts. Many feel that, in the last years of Tolkien's life, he was moving away from the idea of Orcs as corrupted Elves. All of these theories seem to have problems. For example, Orcs are around a long time before Men. The Orcs seem so "dumb" so how could they be Maiar? And what about Tolkien's other statement that Sauron and Morgoth couldn't really "make" or create any new forms from scratch (only Eru could do that). But I also don't think we can automatically assume an Elvish origin, and hence immortality. What if some of the Orcs were actually descended from beasts or men? You might have life stretched out (like the Ringwraiths), but how could mannish Orcs be immortal? And what if Orcs were corrupt Elves? What happens when they were slain, which they certainly could be. Did the Orc fea travel to the House of Mandos? Tolkien does say somewhere that there is at least the slim possibility of Orcs being redeemable. Actually, he says they are "not unredeemable." So what happens if a slain Orc sees the error of its ways. Would the hroa just remember and recopy the Orc body as normally happens for an Elf? Ugh, what a disaster, to be a repentent corrupted Elf trapped within an Orc body. Oh, yes, there is at least one reference in the hobbit to "goblin" (i.e. Orc) children. I think it says somewhere that Gollum had just eaten a Goblin child before Bilbo came into his lair. So if there is a child, must there be a female Orc too? Can anyone shed light on these things who knows more than I do? sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.