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Old 12-04-2017, 09:34 PM   #30
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Can't believe I'm just finding this thread, but better late than never! Kudos Legate for starting and all the contributors here.

I'm just spit balling random things coming into my head after reading this discussion...

First, I think the fact we get individual orcs, named orcs, is important to the topic. Names were important to Tolkien. I would suggest the named orcs have more free will and individuality than the Nazgul. The nameless Nazgul, eternal slaves to the will of Sauron. As few as there are, the orcs that get names must have been important to Tolkien, for receiving names establishes some form of individuality that the Nazgul lost/no longer have.

In The Hobbit, the orcs get enraged by the death of their leader the Great Goblin. And isn't part of Bolg's motivation driven by the death of Azog? (I could be mistaken there).

Thinking on Ugluk, what possible effects does Saruman's cross-breeding have on his Man-orcs? Maybe the unintended side effect of these man-orcs having a sliver more of free will and 'nobility?' Even if it's brutish, the seed of free will is planted when Saruman crosses Men with Orcs. It's mostly suppressed and contained by orc society, but certainly intriguing to think about the differences between Grishnakh and Ugluk, and if there's a side-effect that happens with Saruman's cross-breeding.

And lastly, from Gorbag and Shagrat's fantastic conversation. A lot of emphasis gets put on the part where they discuss life "in the good ole days" with no big bosses, but there's another point by Gorbag that needs discussed:

"But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too."~The Choices of Master Samwise
So now we have an orc mentioned the emotion "love"...woah But here we also see not only the orcs being held in check by fear and war under Sauron, but the fear they have if "He" loses the war. Looking at things from Gorbag's eyes, the orcs are between a rock and a hard place, live under a tyrant to serve as bodies in his wars, but at least he provides protection (as limited as it might be) from their enemies. "if they get topsides on Him, we're done too." Let's face it...Elladan and Elrohir's sole purpose in life, as detailed in the appendices is going to a different part of Middle-earth and teaching the people there how best to kill an orc.
I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

Fenris Penguin

Last edited by Boromir88; 12-04-2017 at 09:39 PM.
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