[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Exactly; "the Democratic People's Republic of Mordor" comes to mind, although I doubt Sauron bothered with such pretence. I suppose Professor Tolkien might be arguing that strong political ideologies were essentially indistinguishable from false religions, especially with the implication of Sauron being equivalent to a "Marshal This-or-That" of one of the totalitarian "political religions" of the Twentieth Century.

I seem to recall reading this exact sentiment, but I think it was from Christopher.

And this does seem to be rather the implications surrounding his descriptions of the Worship of Morgoth that Sauron instituted among the Númenóreans.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In another thread I mentioned Brian Rosebury's statement in Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon that "The modernity of Tolkien’s work, from the point of view of its content, lies not in coded reference to specific contemporary events or phenomena, but in the absorption into the invented world – no doubt a partly unconscious absorption – of experiences and attitudes which Tolkien would scarcely have acquired had he not been a man of the twentieth century."

I have often thought something similar, but in a context of how he relates the events of Middle-earth to a parallel history of Christendom that comes almost directly from Gibbon, which saw a Victorian resurgence in the parallels of the British Empire of which Tolkien was a member of the last remnants of that Empire.

But his personal experiences too, are keenly felt in his work.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Dr. Rosebury goes on to say "Some are obvious enough. The Lord of the Rings describes a continental war, in which the survival of whole peoples and cultures is at stake. The undertow of apocalyptic dread is familiar to anyone who has lived in the nuclear age, but its primary biographical source must greatly pre-date Hiroshima: almost certainly it lies around 1914–15 when Tolkien, in common with millions of young men, discovered that he would have to go to war.The successive international crises of the Thirties and Forties can only have reinforced this impression of secular imperilment. Naturally Tolkien would have been more aware than most people of pre-modern analogies: the fall of the Roman Empire, the bare survival of Christian civilisation in the age which produced Beowulf, the lively expectation of world’s end that obsessed some medieval and Reformation believers. But that historical awareness is itself a modern, even a modernist, attribute."

I find this an interesting argument, because it depends on how we understand "modern". There were certainly continental wars before the First and Second World Wars, such as the Napoleonic Wars and, perhaps, the Thirty Years' War, both of which are "modern" according to some definitions. I believe such wars were also, to some, seen as "apocalyptic" in their time. Thus I suppose the question arises of whether we define "modern" in terms of "modernity" or "the modern period", of the early 16th century until the present day, or as specifically "modernist", that is, of the first half of the 20th century in particular.

The bane of the Historian: defining "Modernity."

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One thing I note, which has surely been observed elsewhere, is that Professor Tolkien's love of a good pipe (and many of his characters' subsequent enjoyment of it as well) is a fairly "modern" thing and rather out of place in the medieval world. I wonder if Aragorn still enjoyed a pipe after he had become King? It's unsurprising that the more "modern" Hobbits smoked, but curious to observe that High Men, Dwarves and Wizards did too. There is another bit of "modern" culture working its way backwards into the "medieval" - or is it drawing the medieval forward, into the modern?

I got the feeling that Aragorn and Gandalf were rather atypical in that regard. Saruman, for instance, only began smoking after he had observed Gandalf's affection for it.

But it does remain a mark of modernity, as "smoking tobacco" (which is what Pipe Leaf is - he does spell that out quite clearly that it is Tobacco - a form of Nicotiana Nightshade (Solanaceae) is a product of the "New World," and not available in Europe until the 16th Century (The 1550s was when it was first introduced, and not until the 17th Century did its use become more widespread). History aside though....

It seems that Tolkien is marking certain people as being "Closer to Modernity" in one fashion or another.

The Hobbits are a sort of Idealized Englishman.

Aragorn is an Idealized King.

Gandalf and Saruman represent Idealized forms of Reason (the word "Idealized" here does not mean, necessarily "Best," but merely a purified, or rarified form).

That is a very deep Rabbit Hole, though...

Originally Posted by Zigûr

(Incidentally, I've been thinking about why Legolas found smoking strange. Even though the Elves made some pipes for Bilbo, is it possible that for Professor Tolkien a pipe meant relaxation and an aid to thinking, which was something Men, Wizards incarnate as Men, Dwarves and Hobbits might need, but Elves did not?)

Did the Noldor not "Think?"

I am not saying that the speculation is out of place, or misguided, as he clearly had this prejudice (The interview of Tolkien I posted in another thread even has Tolkien saying exactly that: Smoking helps him to think).

I get the inference, though, that the Elves tended more to "Remember" or "Dream" than they "thought" about things.

But the Noldor of the First and Second Ages (and during the Ages of the Trees) seem to have done more than a little "thinking" in their time.

Perhaps they did not smoke because Smoking was a New Thing in Middle-earth (being only a few generations old in Bilbo's day), and the days of Glory of the Noldor (when they needed to think were long-gone).

So... You are probably correct here, given that relationship.

And that Smoking was "Modern" even within Middle-earth.

MB