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Old 01-22-2007, 04:31 PM   #122
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
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Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Silmaril I hope this makes sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Eru, it seems, is only 'necessary' to the story as an explanation of how things originated (as far as BoLT is concerned) & in practical terms the Secondary world is not monotheistic, but polytheistic.
If you take it like this, then I'd say the secondary world is no-theistic (I don't want to say "atheistic", because this is not the right term nor it is true), because the Valar hardly intervene even during the First Age, much less after the departure of Noldor (not including the War of Wrath), and after the Fall, they lay down the rulership over Arda and then they just send the Istari (quoting Tolkien: "and perhaps with calling Eru for advice?").
But it is also about what you call "polytheistic": there are fourteen different powers, but they all stand together. Like the colors which make a rainbow, if I am to use a metaphore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Gets my vote for the most boring & gap filling character Tolkien created.
As a character in a story, well, why, he might be, for someone. But since we spent this whole thread speaking mostly about him, I wouldn't consider him as boring and gap filling as you say. And as Lal said, "he is". I don't suppose a Creator would fill his time in running around Beleriand and make Legolas-movie-like stunt moves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendė
And just one more thing. Eru does trick Aule. He makes him think that he has smote down his Dwarves even before they have been given the Flame, but he hasn't:
Well, "trick" is such an awful word. But I know, I know. However this might be "trick", in the end Aulė has more joy than he'd possibly have if everything went fine and Eru agreed rightaway. I always considered this part to be a very beautiful part, since I first read it (and I was about... eh... 10 years old?), I always almost feel the joy of Aulė when his creation was not only allowed, but blessed.
I think also this "trick" has a good reason for it to be done:
Aulė is driven to make a choice, like Melkor did: Melkor wanted to have things of his own, but he did not come before Eru with them. I mean: when it was realized that he has his secret plans, he kept them to himself and "so what, I'm gonna sit on them like a hen on its eggs". Aulė chooses to admit he did something against Eru (please note now that I am now leaving out all the points about that Eru of course had this in plan, because it comes from him etc., but we are talking about Aulė as independant being - HE does not know, it seems). This is, I think, really about the learning which has been very nicely pointed out by some people here. Aulė is left to discover himself that Eru knows even about his secrets (for those who were interested in it, possibly proof that Eru is omnipotent!), and more important, he has to discover that Eru wants Aulė to surrender his works to him. Meaning: when Aulė surrenders the Dwarves to Eru, like "I will even destroy them if you wish", Eru tells okay, you gave them to me, you didn't want to make them just for yourself and hide them from me (which, if you admitted it to yourself, is impossible: "That you all know that I am Eru... no one can play any theme against me"). So you see, had Melkor asked Eru "could I tear down this mountain", "could I destroy these Lamps", Eru might even told him "yes, you can" (but more likely "no, you cannot", but then, when Melkor asked, he'd accept it and instead go and for example help Manwė with the winds, or sit and do nothing, or think of another thing to do).
Okay pals, now when I stop at what I just wrote, I think that I accidentally resolved the debate about what is or what is not "allowed" in M-E. I think this is pretty clear now. The dischord could have been OK, had Melkor not tooth and nail held it to himself. This is the slight difference, and it is really a slight difference, but I think it is important and I hope I hit the nail here: the definition of what is "good" and what is "bad" is defined by Eru; since he is All, he defines it. And I daresay he defines it on the basis of many factors, and the main is if the one goes with his plan = not that Eru had any plan like "Manwė goes there and Ulmo comes to him at 3 AM" but "can I go to Manwė at 7 PM? I want to make one more river here". In certain points, Eru might say "no" (for example, I think, to a question "Can I kill Manwė?" According to what I am able to guess from Tolkien's works, the latest possible answer would be "Ask him first", unless, of course, there was any reason why Manwė would have to be killed). As I said, I quite stand with the opinion that it is about learning. The reason why Eru has let the dischord and the evil to take place is, that he gives everyone (no "evil ones" or "good ones" distinction here during the process) a chance to learn. And on this basis the "good" and "evil" are defined. So Eru says: If you know what you are doing, I will bless it. (I know this sentence is quite simple and can be interpretated in many ways, but applying this Secondary World thesis on us here, who wants to learn, will find the right meaning in it. Who wants not, might argue until the end of this thread )

One last example for illustration: the all-known Gollum case. He had the possibility to learn, seemingly he did not take it. By the way, from this it also seems that learning has its time (in the mortal world).
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