[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

So assuming that there really was a need for all this to stop, what would the alternatives have been short of drowning the island? Swallowing up the ships would not have done the job in my opinion, since there was still Sauron sitting with the Ring on top of his little hill. Taking out Sauron somehow? That would be a possibility, but could Sauron be gotten rid of so easily since he had the Ring? (Would it have been possible for the Valar to destroy the Ring while leaving everything outside the Temple boundaries nice and tidy?) And even if you took out Sauron and the fleet, the whole infrastructure of the Temple system would exist. The people of Numenor had the knowledge and resources to remake the ships. I doubt their behavior would change. Could anything effective be done short of what was actually done? What I am asking us to do is to look beyond the question of who does the punishment and ask if there were alternatives as to what was done.

I did look at such alternatives earlier in this thread, and also failed to come up with any good ones; I too believe the story is about how a people painted themselves into a very bad corner, chiefly because they were proud and thoughtless and had no idea what they were getting themselves into by bringing Sauron to their island. If we want to read it in moral terms, we can almost view Eru's actions as merciful in that they fulfilled Amandil's wish for Men to be "delivered from Sauron the Deceiver". There was no easier way, and it's because the Númenóreans brought this upon themselves and their children. Foolishness kills. The only reason I don't hugely bother to see it this way is because I myself do not see Eru as a moral figure, and so don't bother to explain his actions in that light. But I did offer that sort of answer earlier for those who do see it that way.

Originally Posted by davem

Of course. The problem I have with the character is its 'primitiveness' & 'simplicity' (in a bad sense). The character lacks the necessary depth & complexity to sit well in the developed Legendarium. I still feel this is Tolkien's motivation in the Athrabeth - not to bring the Legendarium into line with Christianity, but to try & salvage the character. To go back to the edit in my last post - if Tevildo had not evolved into Sauron he would either have had to be removed from the Legendarium altogether, or take on a role like Shelob.

Tolkien puts no real effort into developing the character because he doesn't need to - Eru's role is so minor that he might as well not exist other than as something that prevents things sliding into dualism. As long as there's something there which stops that happening (even though most readers will not care one way or the other, being caught up in the story) it doesn't really matter what that thing is - call if Eru & forget it. Yet it still becomes a problem as the Legendarium outgrows such simplistic figures & so Eru has either to be forgotten altogether, replaced, or changed into something else. The Athrabeth seems Tolkien's attempt to do just that.

Odd. Because when I reread the earliest version of the Ainulindalë some time ago, my breath was taken away by how different Eru's character was. If anything, Ilúvatar was the character who changed the most over the varying traditions of that story. In the first version, he preached long messages about how Melkor's "ugliness" would bring forth "beauty" and that it would be the thing that made the Music most worthwhile. We are basically given a long sermon on theodicy in the first version. But as time goes on, Tolkien takes out huge sections of Eru's dialogue, making him a much more aloof figure whose motives are far more unclear. If Eru seems one-sided and overly mysterious, it's fairly obviously because Tolkien came to want him to be that way. He was actually more like the Christian God in the beginning than he afterwards became. Eru became more unique of a figure, not less of one.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay pals, now when I stop at what I just wrote, I think that I accidentally resolved the debate about what is or what is not "allowed" in M-E. I think this is pretty clear now. The dischord could have been OK, had Melkor not tooth and nail held it to himself. This is the slight difference, and it is really a slight difference, but I think it is important and I hope I hit the nail here: the definition of what is "good" and what is "bad" is defined by Eru; since he is All, he defines it. And I daresay he defines it on the basis of many factors, and the main is if the one goes with his plan = not that Eru had any plan like "Manwë goes there and Ulmo comes to him at 3 AM" but "can I go to Manwë at 7 PM? I want to make one more river here". In certain points, Eru might say "no" (for example, I think, to a question "Can I kill Manwë?" According to what I am able to guess from Tolkien's works, the latest possible answer would be "Ask him first", unless, of course, there was any reason why Manwë would have to be killed). As I said, I quite stand with the opinion that it is about learning. The reason why Eru has let the dischord and the evil to take place is, that he gives everyone (no "evil ones" or "good ones" distinction here during the process) a chance to learn. And on this basis the "good" and "evil" are defined. So Eru says: If you know what you are doing, I will bless it. (I know this sentence is quite simple and can be interpretated in many ways, but applying this Secondary World thesis on us here, who wants to learn, will find the right meaning in it. Who wants not, might argue until the end of this thread).

If I understand you correctly, I agree. And the reason it is good, bad, right, wrong, etc. in Eru's eyes seems to be whether it is possible according to his Will or not. Melkor and Aulë tried to pit themselves against the impossible, whether they knew it or not. If, like Aulë, Melkor had been willing to acknowledge the impossibility of his deeds, there would have been no problems for himself or anyone else, I think; or they would be quite lessened (there was, after all, still strife between the Dwarves and the Elves). But at least the Dwarves had been made into a coherent creation, and did not remain a vain imagining like Melkor's plans. If you go the route of vain imaginings, you will have to take a very long, hard road to get back into right thinking. This was the journey Melkor chose to take. Perhaps, in the long run, the fullness of his experience would give him more insight into the Will of Eru than he otherwise could have had, but it had to be bought with his own suffering and that of others.

Moderators: considering how off the main topic this thread has gone, it would probably be a good idea to split it now and name the new thread "Eru Ilúvatar" or something.