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Originally Posted by tumhalad2
I'm not sure why you treat me like such a pariah, is it you prerogative to decide who belongs to the in group and the out group on these boards? You could be nicer.
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I could be. Does that mean you will stop repeating yourself in post after post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad2
Suffering does occur in all Tolkien's works, but Turin's suffering is singled out and expanded upon in almost novelistic terms, hence it is an interesting case study. I don't agree with you that the writer is inferring "nonsense", and I don't think Tolkien's internal metaphysics supplies an answer to the problem of evil in his world.
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Turin's story isn't necessarily "singled out", Tolkien simply did not have time to expand everything he wished to. He wrote the
The Ley of Leithian in over 4000 lines of iambic tetrameter (which he didn't finish, only completing 13 of a planned 17 cantos), but that doesn't mean he wasn't interested in expanding other stories into poetic verse (
The Lay of the Children of Hurin, with the same story elements as CoH, is another famously unfinished poem). Actually, he began rewriting the
Lay of Leithian again after finishing LotR. To be honest, he never actually "finished" CoH either. He revised it several times, and it had to be compiled by C. Tolkien after his death from various manuscripts. Was it published in the manner JRR wished? That is completely up for conjecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad2
With regards to Turin, Melian has been repeatedly mentioned as some kind of divine authority, and that the difference between her and Gandalf is that Frodo listened to Gandalf's advice whereas Turin rejects Melian's. True, she may be of "divine" stature, but she is not, and she does not claim to speak for, God. While Gandalf does not claim to speak for God explicitly, his words are just one example in LoTR where he (or the text) makes claims about the nature of fate. In LoTR, we are left with the sense that fate is orchestrated by unseen divine powers. There is a qualitative difference between this, and Turin receiving "wisdom" from Melian, or "advice" from Elven messengers, regardless of which Vala they claim to speak for.
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If fate is divinely orchestrated in LotR, then the incredibly brave acts of Frodo and Sam are negated, the compassion Bilbo shows Gollum is unnecessary, and the work of Gandalf over a millenia was unneeded. What a useless book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad2
The Valar are not omnipresent, omnipotent, nor indeed omnibenevolent, so their perspective, while powerful, is also provisional.
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WARNING: REPETITION ADVISORY!
Reread the Silmarillion as many times as you like. Eventually, you will discern that Eru does not take an active or implied part in the governance of Arda after its creation. The Valar, mistake-prone, annoyingly inactive and even criminally neglectful, have sole jurisdiction over Arda. It was their choice to capture Morgoth and hold him prisoner, it was their choice to ignore the near destruction of the Eldar and Edain after Morogth escaped and they banned the Noldor, and it was their choice to imprison Morgoth once and for all after Earendil arrived in Valinor wearing a Silmaril. Additionally, it was their unconscionable decision to ignore the escape of Sauron, which caused much of the agony of the 2nd and 3rd Age. If anyone, the Valar deserve full derision for their inept shepherding of Arda and all the suffering that occurred to Turin and nearly every other character in the books, not Eru. Had they done their jobs properly, we would not be having this discussion, nor would the books be written.
Only when Ar-Pharazon and the Numenoreans were on the shores of the Blessed Realm did the Valar surrended their governance to Eru, and it was only then that he finally interfered in the troubles of Arda. That's the story as written. I don't know how much clearer I can make it. The author of the essay didn't get it, and it seems you don't either. I can't explain it further.