[lindil]

Comments on the proposed RS-TCG changes


Antoine :RS-TCG-02
Echoriath to Echoriad per The War of the Jewels (HoME 10), "The Wanderings of Húrin". Warning: I have NO explanation for this change!

lindil: see above, by myself and Aiwendil re: Doriath. Confliction w/ established [canonical] LotR/RGEO Sindarin.

OK I get it now, The changes listed are direct from jallanite's original list, but without his caveat's [ such as 'questionable Elvish' and 'somewhat dubious substitutions'

[ thanks for pointing that out Aiwendil!]

so most def the -iath --> iad change is not for us.

old comments on Legolas

lindil:looking legolas up in the name list on p.216 I
read:'named by the eldar there [in Tol Eressea]
Laiqalasse'
So he has already been given a 'Quenya' name by JRRT!
there is then a reference to an extended note in I
wherein we read CRT saying
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'the following Note is of
great interest' "Laigolas =green-leaf,......legolast
i.e.keen-sight...but perhaps both were his names as the
gnomes delighted to give similar sounding namesof
dissimilar meaning, legolas-the ordinary form is a
confusion of the 2."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we are given 2 options that I can see [and I do not
excpect anyone to rely on me for linguistic skills!]

A 'quenya' - Laiqalasse'
or an uncorrupted 'sindarin' - Laigolas Legolast.
a third option could be just Laigolas -


Aiwendil:I don't think 'Laigolas' is usable, at least not if it is meant to represent a different word from 'Legolas'. It seems most probable to me that it was merely an alternate spelling. But anyway, if we accept the etymology of Legolas (as we must), then 'Laigolas' lacks an etymology entirely.

Tar Elenion :Actually there is an etymology of sorts.
"Legolas means 'green-leaves', a woodland name - dialetical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lasse [with overscore on the 'e'] (High-elven lasse, S. las(s)) 'leaf'; *gwa-lassa/*gwa-lassie 'collection of leaves, foliage' (H.E. olassie [w/ overscore on 'e'], S. golas, -olas); *laika 'green' - basis LAY as in laire 'summer' (H.E. laica, S. laeg (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg)."
Quoted from Letter 211.
"'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg 'viridis fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, foliage'."
Quoted from Letter 297.

'ae' and 'ai' are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad's spear)).

Aiwendil:What I meant was that 'Laigolas' is really not a different name at all from 'Legolas'. However, 'Legolast' might be used, if it could still represent 'keen-sight' (I doubt if it could, but we might change it to a more suitable form).

lindil:Re: legolast /laigolas etc. I am for anything other than duplicating legolas /legolas greenleaf.
The others are such close variants that perhaps the Quenya version should be used despite it standing out.

Cian <mod note- linguist, does anyone know how to query him still? end mos note>:

I'd go with Laegolas for the "pure Sindarin" that JRRT offers, in the letter quoted by Tar-Elenion.

Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor "older" word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old "Qenya" orthography.

Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas, -olas Q. olassië) as denoting a collection of leaves. Cheers~

later Cian posted:
Re: keeping the form Legolas ~ remember that this form shows Silvan dialect.

Lindil, yes an "updated" situation can (may) be considered:

Quenya laiqua (LAYAK) Sindarin cognate *laeb (Noldorin lhoeb in Etym.)
Quenya laica (LAY) Sindarin cognate laeg (Cf. Q&E WotJ laegel, Laegrim)

The term Laiquendi "Greenelves" was likely originally conceived of as resulting from laiqua+quendi. But laica can also "fit" here, so to speak ~ according to Helge F., the first element may be a reduced form of _laica_ , or prefixed _lai_ may represent only the base itself (LAY), or maybe even laica+quendi > Laiquendi considering rocco+quén > roquen "knight".

Lindil: I vote for Cian's proposal Laegolas
[ unless someone can convince me otherwise]

Aesthetically I would prefer smething even farther removed as I think JRRT would have altogether changed it, but any change is better than recycling legolas, imo.

do we need a legolas vote, along w/ Orc/k vote [ we might as well do them all at once]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

edit - deletion of Rog material, moved to pt 4 - edit
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
on Thorondor: RS-TCG-03

the quote on the thorondor passage above was not Jallanite's last word on Thorondor, in his following post he suggests [ and I concur] "We could restore the phrase "dwelt once even on Thangorodrim" and the word "now" and leave vague when and why Thorondor changed his dwelling."

That is currently my preference on the principle that if you don't have to remove it, then keep it.
this would, I think,leave us with:

They are the folk of Thorondor, who dwelt once even on Thangorodrim , and dwell now in the Mountains of Turgon .

so those are my thoughts on the above.

I will aim for going over the Transition proposals/draft in the next day or 2.

Now that I actually understand the source of the changes [I know Antoine, you mentioned it before in a very early post to me but I failed to put 2 and 2 together]I will try and go back and look over the general changes.

also as for the 'rude bear string harp',I say no go. The whole feel of that does not to me match the UT description wherein we here that Tuor was raised even as the princes of the edain by the Sindar of Mithrim. So if anything he may well have had a nice classical stlye sindarin harp.
I think that is def an ommision JRRT would not have restored even if he had had the BoLT version in front of him.

and come to think of it, I will bet that is why JRRT stopped work on 'Of Tuor and his Coming', because he wanted to in some way reference BoLT for the rest of the story
and he never dug it out of wherever it was hiding.

Should we go ahead and post a poll for ORC/K
and la/egolas ?

It might be easier, I now think if we just deal w/ a couple of things at a time than 100 all at once. Unless I hear a couple of nays in the next few days i will put it up in the both the TftE forum [ the 'binding vote from members' and inthe Silm forum for the general observers.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]