[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

More importantly, are we really justified in retaining and altering this Lost Tales account? I don't see that any later changes necessitate that the account be lost completely, but they certainly make the account dubious. I think it would be safer to drop this and the story of the battle of the Silent Pools.

This is a realy general question. Safer it would clearly be to drop all my additions. But I found it very furstarting that I could learn near to nothing about that last battle that was clearly so improtant for the History of the Hitherlands when I have read The Silmarillion. With my proposal I tried to amaned that and give at least a idea of the course of the 50 year long war. I have no better arguement for the additions, that you have not taken in to your considerations. I can clearly go without all my aditions, but I would find the account more interresting and more fitting the goal of our project with them. I will go on to make my text as good as it can be done, without being sure my self if we should use it in the end.

Posted by Aiwendil:

Now I agree that all but the first sentence of this must be placed after the account of the battle at Sirion.
But I don't see the need to move the first sentence. Indeed, moving it as you do makes it sound as though "The Great Battle" refers specifically to the battle over the river Sirion.

You might be right here. Reading my own text again in the light what you said it might even be better to move even more of the passage.

Posted by Aiwendil:

I understand it to be a replacement for the Lost Tales story of Noldorin - but what suggests that it was specifically the Noldor of Eonwe's host that camped in Nan-Tathren (as opposed to the Vanyar)?

Your understanding is clearly right and it is an editorial addition needed to get the story working without Noldorin. What makes me feel that the Vanyar and Noldor of Aman builded separate entities in that war, is the fact that Ingwiel made his landing fare to the north of Nan-Tathren. Why should they then camp so far south afterwards? For me it seems fitting that Eönwë made some of his host land in the south to secure the remaining Elves of Beleriand, and who would have been more fitting for that job than the Noldor of Valinor as they would safe kinsfolk (Noldor of Beleriand) and friends of old (Sindar). In an afterthought I now ask myself if "tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor" does really refer only to the Vanyar when the Noldor (may be all the Noldor and not only the Noldor of Valinor) suffered a catastrophic defeat at Nan-Tathren?

This would make some sense since we learn from Elrond in The Lord of the Rings; volume 1: The Fellowship of the Ring; book II; chapter The Councile of Elrond:

Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed, "Iremember well the splendour of their banners," he said. "It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the host of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair , as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so."

I think that does corospond nicely with:

He [Eönwë] summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth.

But it is contradicted in a way by

Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.

Thus if the Elves of Beleriand did assemble under the banner of Eönwë we must have some reason why they did not know much about the battle in the north. A catastrophic defeat in Tathren could be such a reason, and would also account for Elronds recollection of "many defeats, since I can otherwise not see so many defeats in his history (fall of Eregion, sige of Rivendell in the second age).

Posted by Aiwendil:

. . . ought, I think, to be:" But the Army of Eönwë's host overthrew them in the battle of the Silent Pools."

Agreed.

I try to develop the text in the way I discussed above:
Forum formatted:

Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.>{Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.} But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard}, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
<AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. ><FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?}[The host of the Noldor camped long in Nan-Tathren.] Indeed sleeping {and dancing here}there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few] made bare escape thence.><E&Æ An other Army of {Tulkas}[Eönwës host] /camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even there{where Tulkas' after fought with Melko's self><E&Æ{Army of Tulkas at the Pools of Twilight ........ and [?many] Gnomes, but} Men fall on them out of {Hisilome}[Hithlum].>E&Æ<{Tulkas overthrows Melko}[But the Army of Eönwës host did overthrow them] in the battle of the Silent Pools. >Then <AB2 [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BTOf the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.{...}
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …

Plain Text:

Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
The host of Eönwë was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglarest, where Ingwion son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great war came now into Beleriand, and Eönwë drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons. But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of Eönwës arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. The host of the Noldor camped long in Nan-Tathren. Indeed sleeping there, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by Morgoth from the Ironhills and only a few made bare escape thence. An other Army of Eönwës host camped at the Pools of Twilight, the great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, where goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the Lands of Willows, even there Men fall on them out of Hithlum.But the Army of Eönwës host did overthrow them in the battle of the Silent Pools. Then Eönwë crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth, and Morgoth‘s army fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Eönwë.
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …

Respectfully
Findegil