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Angry Hill Troll · 06-04-2006, 04:29 PM

Aristotle's elements vs. Tolkien's elements

Tolkien tends to follow the Aristotelian concept of "elements" but with one difference: "fire" and "earth" are combined into one.

Examples are that Aulë is both the Vala responsible for creating the physical structure of the Earth, and also a smith (who uses fire). The Silmaril that Maédhros took ended up "in the fires of the earth". And the "secret Fire burns at the heart of the world".

Did Círdan use Narya?

He could only have used it during the Third Age, before Gandalf showed up. Once Sauron made the One Ring, about 10 years after Celebrimbor made the Three, the elves no longer used the Three for the remainder of the Second Age, because doing so would have revealed their locations to Sauron. Círdan seems to have given Narya to Gandalf as soon as he arrived, around TA 1000 or so. The first millenium of the Third Age was pretty peaceful, so there might not have been that pressing a need to use Narya. The wars with Angmar occured after TA 1200, so at that time, Círdan no longer had the ring.

In the UT version, Círdan explicitly says that Narya is idle, so if in a different version of the story Círdan did use the ring, Tolkien would have to have changed his mind (well, that did happen at other times).

I would say that it's very unlikely that Círdan used Narya, although the wording of the story of Círdan giving it to Galdalf in LOTR doesn't explicitly say so.

06-04-2006, 04:29 PM	#17
Angry Hill Troll Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ephel Duath Posts: 115	A few thoughts... Aristotle's elements vs. Tolkien's elements Tolkien tends to follow the Aristotelian concept of "elements" but with one difference: "fire" and "earth" are combined into one. Examples are that Aulë is both the Vala responsible for creating the physical structure of the Earth, and also a smith (who uses fire). The Silmaril that Maédhros took ended up "in the fires of the earth". And the "secret Fire burns at the heart of the world". Did Círdan use Narya? He could only have used it during the Third Age, before Gandalf showed up. Once Sauron made the One Ring, about 10 years after Celebrimbor made the Three, the elves no longer used the Three for the remainder of the Second Age, because doing so would have revealed their locations to Sauron. Círdan seems to have given Narya to Gandalf as soon as he arrived, around TA 1000 or so. The first millenium of the Third Age was pretty peaceful, so there might not have been that pressing a need to use Narya. The wars with Angmar occured after TA 1200, so at that time, Círdan no longer had the ring. In the UT version, Círdan explicitly says that Narya is idle, so if in a different version of the story Círdan did use the ring, Tolkien would have to have changed his mind (well, that did happen at other times). I would say that it's very unlikely that Círdan used Narya, although the wording of the story of Círdan giving it to Galdalf in LOTR doesn't explicitly say so.