[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

That is to ignore all the previous actions of the numenoreans; they already resorted to oppressing, they stopped following the old ways, respecting the valar and their status, or the offerings to Eru. Three great numenorean lords became ringwraiths. They punished those who welcomed the elven ships. All these happened before Sauron came to Numenor.

I know - you were the one who put all the blame on Sauron by saying:

he used his demonic power to corrupt the very beings.

Either Sauron corrupted them - as you stated there, or they were already 'corrupted' & that is why they succumbed to him. You seem to be seeking to win the argument by adopting both positions.

There can't be a middle way for a moral person. Numenoreans weren't victims, they were accessories, if not perpetrators of Sauron's corruption in Numenor. One cannot expect salvation from God if one welcomes (while one still can welcome) evil.

This has always been the problem with human beings - they will be human beings (often intentionally, & with malice aforethought). They will be complex, confused, frightened for themselves & those they love, do what they think is right & get it wrong. Sometimes they will even be nasty, unpleasant & cruel. Thank goodness in Arda there was a God who was prepared to slay them all (even those vicious little children, who were probably the worst of the lot. Pretending to be Orcs - they should have been skinned alive & fed to the wargs in order to save their immortal fea).

BTW, I wonder, en passant, if anyone agrees with you that its acceptable for Eru to slaughter 'wicked' children.

His _stated_ point for the story was Man's satiety with good - hence his propensity towards evil. May I ask if you read it?

I have, actually. TBH it came across to me like the rantings of an old codger about 'the youth of today..' & I'm glad he thought better of continuing with it.

That's a cryptic statement to me, as a non native English speaker, and I suppose it was meant to be sarcastic. Perhaps you could be kind enough to state your argument in more detail.

It was a bit sarcastic. But then you were being a bit pedantic. I think we should both forgive each other & move on.

This would ignore one of his main concerns: writting about fundamental subjects in essence, not in form - his struggle with allegory.

Whatever. He wrote a story. I read it as a story. I don't remember him anywhere stating he was trying to reveal the truth about God.

Sauron was a problem that Men had to deal with;

Why 'had to'?

Metaphysical as in what? Non-material, "spiritual"?

Yes - that's what 'metaphysical' means, & that's why I used it in that way.

We also have the second world, of the spirits, in which wraiths and apparently elves access. I am sure Sauron too has power there too, as elves have too. It is said in the Silmarillion that Sauron was threatened by Luthien by something that can only be described as a non-material hell ("'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower"). Anyway, I am looking forward to your clarification.

EDIT - I was rushing ahead (& seriously distracted by a headcold, so I misunderstood Raynor's point. Re-reading it I see I got the wrong end of the stick.

I'll attempt another answer.

This is clearly a reference to what will happen if Sauron's fea (his 'naked self') escapes & returns to Morgoth. It doesn't posit the existence of a metaphysical realm/state of eternal damnation.

On to the Miriel issue. Certainly Foster in his Complete Guide to Middle-earth (praised for its accuracy by no less an authority than Christopher Tolkien himself) states that Tar-Miriel was one of the faithful.