Thread: Orcish Fear
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Old 11-08-2000, 08:30 PM   #51
Saulotus
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by the Black Lieutenant
But then one must say that orcs were made in mockery of men rather than in mockery of Elves.<hr></blockquote>
Technically orcs arose in the mind of Melkor in the original vision of the theme before creation.

Concerning Orcs:
The Elves believed they were made in mockery of them.
How much this plays upon their vanity is the question.
ATHRABETH examines the disimiliar views of the Children a little more in depth.

The orcs were actually made in mockery of the CHILDREN of Eru, and as defilements of Eru's thoughts.

This view on orcs began taking shape in writings around 1959, and isn't as latter as is thought.
The refinements are however later thoughts concerning control of orcs, Maiar forms of orcs, and the ultimate origin of orcs as descending from Beasts due to Melkor's inability to create beings having self-will, but needing the ability to reproduce. The designs of orcs were actually left to Sauron to complete.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by The Black Lieutenant
What about trolls? Were they also descended from beasts? And the later trolls, who were smarter, were they interbred with men, or were they really Maiar?<hr></blockquote>

Concerning Trolls:

The Trolls were made in mockery of The Children of Yavanna (who are present in the themes at the beginning; see ANAXARTARON ONYALIE ANAXARTAMEL [Of the Ents and Eagles/ aka Of Aule and Yavanna]).

A side note to this: This may also be the germ of the origin of the winged steeds of the Nazgul [stated by Tolkien as most assuredly NOT Pterodactyls] (as mockeries of the Eagles?).

Above I mentioned Melkor's inability to create beings of self-will. There is an important distinction here; Melkor COULD create beings (Tolkien uses the creation of Dwarves by Aule as comparison in the essay) but they would not have 'free-will' (i.e. puppets). From this discussion; the original creation of Trolls (from Stone) is understood more clearly. Tolkien asserts that these 'puppets' could after time away from direct control, develop a limited form of 'self-will'. Sauron, in breeding Trolls with Men, creates a more dependable force of slaves.

QUENDI AND ELDAR also expands upon the round world at creation idea that was introduced in 1945 with THE DROWNING OF ANADUNE (pre-LOTR). ANOTHER point of major contention among SILMARILLION readers, who feel that the elderly flat world concept should be retained. See also the aforementioned OF THE ENTS AND EAGLES rejected passages by Christopher concerning the Sun at the beginning, among many other essays involving this concept.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 11/9/00 12:44:57 am
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