[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.

I agree and it is a shame Tolkien does not expand her role, but the story is very Hobbit centric.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.

I think there would be quite a big change. At Rivendell as much as she would help Aragorn, she could not help but be overshadowed by Elrond and Galadriel. She also had no real right to interfere with Dunedain.

Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something

There is so much to Tolkien's work that even the greatest experts occasionally find something else they had missed.

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.

I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

Though it was dropped from the Appendix, Tolkien wanted to point out that Eldarion inherited all the elvish lands of the West through his mother.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

I agree and Arwen is not near Luthien in power. I was only pointing out why Luthien's innate power far exceeded Galadriel's and giving the comparisons.

Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

This is true and the Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth, but rejected him.

Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

I would agree with this. Though I would add Faramir there too.

...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

Not necessarily, but I would agree it took greater strength of will for her to resist than say Faramir etc.

Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.

Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.

Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath. I will give you the quotes if you want.

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.

Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.

Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.

Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.