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Old 08-29-2004, 11:43 AM   #7
mark12_30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan
Quote:
Esty:
I don’t understand why Grace takes effect only after a long period of punishment, as grace waives punishment in my understanding of Christian doctrine, but apparently he saw it that way.


It is perhaps a mistake to view this as punishment. It could be corrective and I would not equate correction with punishment. Something like Niggle being in the shop for repairs.

Quote: Davem
What about the necessity for repentance? Surely repentance requires that the individual be purified


Not necessarily. Repentance is more of the realization of the need rather than requiring a purification process to get to it.
Much to consider here; but allow me to define a few terms so that readers will know from whence I come. Esty, I expect some variance between our definitions, perhaps you would like to clarify yours as well.

Mercy vs grace:

Mercy is not getting what I deserve. I break the law; I deserve to be punished; mercy isdisplayed when the judge chooses not to give me the punishment I fairly deserve.

Grace is getting what I don't deserve. I haven't earned any food; you feed me. I haven't shown you any loyalty; you welcome me into your family. Grace is displayed when gift is freely given without regard to merit: "Unmerited favor".

Given these definitions, protestant theology holds: "Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." The scriptures state we cannot earn that forgiveness, but can only accept or reject it. If we accept it, then our sin is taken away. It is a spiritual transaction, simple and complete. Hence, there is no punishment remaining.

Based on this, the childhood definition of purgatory that I grew up with-- purgatory is where you finish paying for the sins you comitted here-- simply makes no sense, and belittles the sacrifice of the messiah. If I can pay for my sin, why was he sacrificed?

On the other hand, what we do take into eternity (once we are stripped of our sin) is our character: as little or as much of it as we have developed in our years on earth. Tolkien's purgatory is geared , not so much toward punishment(although it is a dreary place to be sure) as it is geared toward character development. This is an entirely different discussion. Character development depends on the interaction of the soul with the grace of God; God gives the soul grace to grow in character.

This is why I say that Tolkien's purgatory is almost palatable. He does not belittle the sacrifice of the messiah; he merely desires to continue character development, to fill in what is lacking. While I see no scriptural support for his idea, I understand the heart behind it, and it is not one of false humility; it is one of wanting the best to give away.

"This day you will be with me in paradise" is still the decisive argument for me, and trumps all logic and storytelling of Tolkien and MacDonald combined. Nevertheless, I am as intrigued by Tolkien's view of purgatory as I am of MacDonald's-- not because I believe it or see scriptural room for it, but because I hear the heart-cry desiring nobility of character. That comes by grace; and the desire to prolong that period of grace is one I can understand.

And incidentally, that nobility of character is what Frodo sailed west to pursue. He did not need forgiveness; he had that. He needed healing, and part of the healing was enough nobility of character to see himself as he was: "in littleness and greatness." And that means, again, not so much mercy-- but grace.
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