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Old 01-23-2005, 10:54 AM   #22
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,129
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!

Thus if we wont give the info that Beren and Lúthien dwelt on Tol-Galen in our current chapter again, I would suggest we use the passage from Sil77.
Yes - but considering that exactly the same information will be given twice elsewhere, and Tolkien didn't see a need to restate it at this point in the narrative, I don't see why we should. I would skip it.


Okay, this change seems to make sense now. Still, I would retain "they" instead of replacing it with "the Dwarves".


I agree, nothing necessitates that he was not using the Bow of Bregor at this point. But as you say it is far-fetched. What we would need is not the absence of evidence to the contrary but rather the presence of evidence for his use of the Bow of Bregor, which we don't have. So we must skip it.

Well, I'm not sure whether to retain the Elven laughter or not. A case could be made that it's out of keeping with the later character of the Elves.

Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here.
You're right - the capitalization was a mistake.


Sorry, I had neglected to reread the discussion that had already taken place between you and Maedhros. You propose:

§56b (§338) ... ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone{, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [ returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>
I would go with this, except that I don't see the need for the additions to the last sentence. It is clear from context that it is "to their claim" that he returns no answer - and considering that we have deleted his words precisely in order to follow the statement that he returned no answer, I don't see any reason to modify it with "clear".


I still don't see the need for "later". Maedhros does nothing more in the fight; and in any case, we don't specify when he makes his search.


This turns out to be a tricky issue. I think you are right that we should consider the second Silmarillion map here. But I'm afraid I must disagree with you regarding its interpretation. I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle. Moreover, it seems very unlikely that Tolkien would not draw the ford of Ascar on the map if such a ford not only existed but was also the site of this important battle.

So I would say that the second Silmarillion map cannot be considered to coincide with the TY version. What this leaves us with is the Lost Tales which put the battle at the ford of Aros (in a vague and unclear geography), the Sketch and the Quenta which put the battle at the stony ford over Gelion, and finally the second Silmarillion map and TY which are at variance, one putting the battle at the Fords of Ascar and the other suggesting that no such ford existed.

If either TY or the second Silmarillion map were clearly later than the other, then matters would be more clear. But they are both, as far as I can tell, from about 1951. We therefore have three possible explanations:

1. "Ascar" in TY is a mistake for "Gelion". This seems plausible at least, since despite the fact that the ford is over Gelion, the river Ascar is very closely associated with the story due to the casting of the gold into it and its renaming.

2. As unlikely as it seems, Tolkien intended the Ford of Ascar to be in the mountains, very close to the source of the river, and yet did not indicate this on the map.

3. Tolkien changed the story in between the second Silmarillion map and TY. In this case of course we cannot know which was the final conception without determining which of these texts came first.

In the absence of any further evidence concerning dates of composition, option 3 cannot enter into our consideration. That leaves us to decide between 1 and 2. To me, 1 seems far more likely - so I suppose in the end I am for keeping the battle at the ford over Duin Daer.
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