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Old 10-19-2020, 07:17 PM   #56
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,156
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
We'll have to come back to the big unresolved issues regarding Myths Transformed, but for now here are some more comments up to CE-EX-52.

CE-EX-44: Typo "brook" for "broke":
Quote:
CE-EX-44 <LT Tulkas and Ulmo {break}broke the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno]
Also, there's a missing {Melko}[Melkor]:

Quote:
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment,
But we also have a redundancy due to a combination of different texts:

Quote:
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).
Here we tell that the Valar returned to Valmar with Melkor twice, and this must be fixed irrespective of what we do about the MT story. Of course, as I have argued, I think the story of Melkor's voluntary surrender should be considered an unusable projection, and since the only new detail offered in the second statement here is that Tulkas followed behind clinking Angainor (whereas in the version I advocate, Melkor would be wearing Angainor), I would just remove it entirely:

Quote:
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> {Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).}
If we decide to keep the new story, I'd suggest instead deleting the LT statement. I also think that the footnote here is very out of place in a narrative text, even more than the body of the MT text, it is Tolkien analyzing his own writing. I'd delete it. Thus:

Quote:
{After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.}> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas{[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.]} who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).
CE-EX-45: There's a missing {Vali}[Valar]:

Quote:
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is} a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small
CE-EX-46:

Quote:
CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears,
In LT, the "thereat" here refers to Palurien's reaction to Makar's argument. With that removed, it makes it appear that Yavanna is brought to tears by the words of Osse, Orome, etc. I think we should change "thereat" to simply "and", and move "arose" correspondingly:

Quote:
CE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} {Thereat}And {arose} {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose in sorrow and tears,
CE-SL-14: Again, I think Melkor should be chained. But in any case, I don't see "writhed" as being inappropriate even if he is unchained; I don't think it necessarily implies straining against the chain.

CE-SL-15: Another instance where, if we follow my suggestion, Melkor will be chained and the change won't be needed.

Quote:
Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.> But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).
Again here I think we have a bad tension between the MT story and that in the preceding section from LT. In MT, it is notable that Melkor was not given immediate freedom, since he submitted willingly. But the preceding section from LT allows no thought that Melkor could possibly be set free - especially since we have removed the one Vala who spoke in favour of him! At the very least, we have to delete the "but". "At the council" is also redundant, since we have already been narrating the council. If we keep the MT element of Melkor's willing submission, then I would emend thus:

Quote:
Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.>

{But at the council} Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).
Quote:
Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion - but he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He {cannot}/could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manwë of being faithless).>
As with the other instances, this should be removed if we accept my argument that this new element not be incorporated.

CE-EX-47: If we accept my argument, this statement should be reinstated.

CE-SL-17:

Quote:
CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
This seems somewhat redundant with the LT insertion in CE-EX-44, so that we say twice that evil things lingered in those places. We should either delete one instance or combine them.

CE-EX-48: Is "Tuivana" still a valid name for Vana? I can't recall if it's used outside of LT.

CE-EX-49: I'm not sure about these "unelvish spirits", much less about Mandos's folk roaming Middle-earth.

CE-EX-50:
Quote:
CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else
I think that with the deletion of the Measse bit, the "and" should be kept to introduce that sentence:

Quote:
CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, a}[A]nd Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else
I also wonder about the description of Nienna as "cold to the Eldar as to all else" here; it seems to me that the Fui Nienna of LT is a much darker figure than the lady of pity and compassion she later became. So I would remove her from that sentence and have it refer only to Mandos:

Quote:
CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else
And finally, we have the statement later (from LQ) that Mandos "had spoken not at all" during the debate. Now, one could argue that the reference here to him being "cold to the Eldar" does not imply that he spoke - and yet, if the implictaion here is not that Mandos and Fui took part in the debate and counselled against taking drastic action out of love for the Eldar, then one wonders why they would be mentioned here at all. So I tend to think that, in the end, even the mention of Mandos ought to be removed:

Quote:
CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ {In this Measse backed him, and Mandos{ and {Fui}[Niënna]} {were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else}

CE-EX-51:
Quote:
Wherefore, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo - it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.
This has to change, since in the new version Ulmo is against the summons; therefore rebellion against Ulmo can't motivate Osse to speak against it. Without this, we have no information on what Osse's opinion would be - and moreover, it seems less likely in the later Legendarium that he would speak at a council of the Valar anyway. So I suggest:

Quote:
CE-EX-51.1Wherefore{, albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo -} it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.
CE-EX-52:
Quote:
And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' CE-EX-52 <AAm And Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.
The insertion from AAm seems to me to be in the wrong place, especially since the next sentence, starting with "for" refers back to Mandos's utterance. I think it would be better thus:

Quote:
And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilúvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.

CE-EX-52 <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Oromë alone, and they were filled with dread.
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