[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I beg to differ. I see Galadriel as taking Melian's place in the TA when it comes to a confrontation with the main villain. Compare:



--The Sil, of Turin Turambar (an almost exact copy of this passage is found in COH, The Land of Bow and Helm)



--Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR.

The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.

Can you tell a clean plate from an unused plate? It's one thing to go through trials and come out unscathed (which realistically never happens, near every character has some flaw), and it's another to not go through any trials at all and be nice and shiny. If I understand you right, you respect the ones that do not show any wear-and-tear of usage on them, even if they are clean. But I respect Galadriel more, because she is more flawed, perhaps, and has had many more trials than Arwen - and still she remains the clean plate, though with a chipped edge or a dent.

It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.

As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will.

It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.

You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case.

We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.

Neither of which is what I'm talking about. I am not reciting The Sil; I am trying to explain the desire of many of the Exiles. To build a kingdom of their own, and make their own, without the Valar handing them everything. Like you want to make your own food instead of just heating up frozen foods. It is not about what they ended up doing - fighting a war, losing a war, winning a war, - it's about what they wanted to do before it all went rolling downhill.

They were deluded and were corrupted by Morgoth, because Manwe is the King of Arda not just Aman. Where ever they tried to go they could not escape the authority of the Valar. The Teleri worked hard on their ships, the Vanyar on poetry and singing. The Noldor's reasons for returning were mostly due to the lies of Morgoth.

Certainly, Ingwe doesn't start a World War. But then, as you said, he's quite boring, and he gives me no emotion whatsoever. I cannot respect him for being good, because there wasn't much of an option (leaving with the Noldor does not count, since the Vanyar were not affected by Morgoth's lies in the first place). He's an unused plate. You can't judge a plate without using it. On the contrary, I'm sure everyone will find some respect (at least!) for the likes of Finrod and Fingolfin, who, despite their brothers and neighbours and everything still try to be good. Even if they fail at it (which is debatable, but beside the point). I respect Fingolfin, who basically committed suicide, more than I respect Ingwe.

You are confusing being a boring person, with a boring story. It seems strange to me that you cannot respect someone for being good. We have very different views. Being good is harder and better than being bad.

The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

Very true. Their main flaws were pride and deafness/blindness to truth and good advice. But they try to be good. Even if they fail utterly (which just adds to the beauty of the story). Unlike Ingwe, who doesn't even have to try.

What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.

Firstly, in my opinion, we know only as much about her character as her deeds and a few descriptions allow us to perceive. She looked like Luthien, probably inherited some of her power/wisdom/insight/foresight, possibly inherited some of her character. But I cannot say she had the same character, at least based on the few actions that we do know. I cannot see Luthien sitting at home weaving a banner when Beren is off to god knows where trying to throw down a being who is a head higher than everyone else, metaphorically speaking, of course. Just like I can't see Arwen galloping off to the Paths of the Dead to...? Dunno. Help out somehow.

You canot say she has the same character as Luthien, but Tolkien can and he does. As the author of the story he can gives us definitive statements. Like when he tells us Sam, Frodo and Bilbo still eventually die in Tol Eressea. He tells us outright Luthien and Arwen had a similar character. Luthien too sat at home and respected the authority of Thingol. It was only when things became desperate for Beren and he was days away from death did she interfere. Arwen on the other hand did not have Luthien's power or the need to rush out and save Aragorn. She helped him as she could and had faith in him.

From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life.

If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.