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Old 09-05-2005, 09:39 AM   #19
Firefoot
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Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."
Several people have commented on this passage; I'd like to compare it to another: one of Faramir's -
Quote:
"For myself," said Faramir, "I would see the White Treee in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens (...)"
We are told several times how similar Faramir and Denethor are, and I think this is a very good example. Both are shown to be idealists, and both want things to be as they were and not as they are. This is probably the end of the similarities, though, and probably the reason for strife between the two of them. Denethor is very selfish; he looks at things in terms of himself. A good example is how he seems to view Gondor in terms of himself, as davem as stated so many times. This selfishness turns those three things he lists (neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated) from honorable sounding things to the corrupted rantings of a man in despair. Just to look at the words, they seem to be quite reasonable and very idealistic, even honourable. However, Denethor means these things in terms of himself: to him, the diminishing on life is the life in which a king not a steward rules; he wants all the love of his son, his knights, and "his" country to belong only to him; and he wants all the honor to remain steadfast to him. If life can't be as it was, he doesn't want there to be any life at all. Faramir, on the other hand, looks further back than just the stewards. He wants things to be as they were in the days of Numenor, or, barring that, the days of the kings. Instead of viewing his ideals from the perspective of himself, he sees his city in the days of glory, and desires peace under the rule of a king. Denethor, who only wants power for himself, cannot understand this.

Quote:
Could Denethor still have changed his mind and aided his city and people, and what effect could that have had on the outcome of the battle?
Given Denethor's personality, I'm not sure that he could. He had built himself a wall of selfishness and pride so high that I'm not sure that he would have been able to knock it down. It would have required an immense change of heart for Denethor to go out and aid his people. Cf.:
Quote:
"He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."
Quote:
"Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy."
I don't doubt that Denethor would see the possibility of going out to lead his troops as going "because Gandalf told him to."
Quote:
"I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart... I will not bow to such a one."
Then there's all that he says about fighting being in vain... Denethor is very deep in, and I honestly don't think that he could go out to fight if he wanted to, and he certainly won't after Gandalf has told him to.

Of brief interest is the use of fire - from the chapter "Minas Tirith:"
Quote:
and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.
I'd say that this strain bursts into flame in this chapter... both figuratively and literally.

Quote:
Sauron's influence is most sharply felt in divisiveness, even to the point of killing friends instead of foes. What is your opinion on Beregond's role in this unhappy event? Should he have acted differently?
I think that Beregond had one of the hardest roles in this chapter, if not the hardest. He had not been released from his post as Pippin had, and he was not allowed to leave it. Following orders is a large part of the military and those who don't can be punished severely. He has a choice: does he follow his orders, leaving Faramir to his death, or does he disobey in hopes of saving Faramir, the captain whom he loves? Denethor has proven that he no longer has the right to rule, and I think that Beregond can hardly be blamed for leaving his post. Ultimately, he makes the best choice that he probably could have in this situation and does what he thinks is right. A bible verse comes to mind: in Acts, the apostles say, "We must obey God rather than men." While there is not a god in question here, Beregond has to obey either what he thinks is right or what Denethor (indirectly) has ordered him to do. As for killing the porter, Beregond has to make another extremely difficult choice: either the porter dies and Faramir (could) live, or the porter lives and Faramir does die. This is not a fair choice for Beregond to make; it should not be up to him to decide whether Faramir's or the porter's life is "more valuable," which is in essence what he has to do. For Faramir to live, the porter had to die. The same goes for the servants that he killed, except that by this time he knew that Faramir was still alive. What it came down to was Beregond's loyalties, and those were to Faramir and what he considered right. There were no real right choices to make, but he did the best he could in a difficult situation.
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